Cobra Anchors -- Reviews?
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Off topic, but if anyone is in need of the old 3/8" SS powerbolts, I have several boxes for sale. They are 3/8"X4" SS, box of 50 bolts for $155 shipped. |
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M Sprague wrote:The Fixe hangers are way better IMO. The only thing I could think of to improve them is to have the inside edges rounded a bit so they don't cut into carabiners as much.I couldn't agree more with this. I have used at least 4 different hanger types and the Fixe hangers are big enough to clip easily and are much more resistant to spinning than Metolius, ClimbTech, or MadRock. If they rounded the bottom edge they'd be all but perfect. |
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Micah Klesick wrote:I agree that the Cobra seems pretty substandard in the strength department.Agreed. The UIAA requirement for anchors is 25kN shear, 20kN tension. You also have to take into account that with corrosion, which all plated steel bolts will eventually develop, the strength values will likely dip well below 1/2 the UIAA's minimum requirement which is so far outside of what is acceptable it's borderline negligence to install those things in the 3/8" version. |
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So you can get 1/2" SS wedge anchors in 2 3/4" length (standard length for 1/2" bolts in harder rocks) for $85 a box of 50 (or $105 a box for 3 3/4"). $1.85 a bolt is pretty damn cheap, and the bolt is well over UIAA standards (around 40kn), and will last so, so much longer than any plated bolt, no matter what environment. Is it really worth saving 75 cents to put lives at risk? |
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Micah Klesick wrote:So you can get 1/2" SS wedge anchors in 2 3/4" length (standard length for 1/2" bolts in harder rocks) for $85 a box of 50 (or $105 a box for 3 3/4").Please post a link to your pricing source. |
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What I find especially surreal is the fact that Kevin posts a link on his home page about the extreme importance of only using CE/ UIAA certified gear, "taking responsibility" and how they "are commited to making the highest quality products possible." Yet, their new flagship bolt does not even come remotely close to meeting CE or UIAA certifications for use as a climbing anchor. Ridiculous. |
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Monomaniac wrote: Please post a link to your pricing source.2.75" x 1/2" - wholesalepowertools.com/pow… 3.75" x 1/2" - wholesalepowertools.com/pow… |
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So to clarify.....I am not the same Kevin as the one at FIXE, (felt like some of you may have made that assumption, could be mistaken) Also, I am not endorsing 3/8" Cobra Bolts. I do not use them so naturally I cannot add or take away anything as to their reliability. I do however use and endorse their 1/2" anchors, and yes, I have replaced "on occasion" the threaded shaft core with a solid shaft bolt on high stress clips. Do I wish they all came with solid shaft bolts? Absolutely! I also wish that Powers would leave the design alone and the price - but they didn't, so I've had to adapt. |
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Cobra Strength Chart for Supersleeve Bolts
Micah Klesick, above is the tech chart for Cobra. The unmodified 1/2" anchors are well above the UIAA standard of 25kn for shear and 20 for pull. Not being argumentative, just making sure the facts are known so people can make an educated decision. Thomas Beck, you asked about pitting in plated hardware. I have replaced approx 24 anchors in the last 5 years on routes all over Utah. In the dry areas the pitting was minimal on anchors that had recorded FA's in the early 90's. I have a friend in the Engineering Dept. at the University of Utah who agreed to test them (for fun, they are always looking for something to test) I had them test 10 samples. The batch averaged 4325 lbs. (only shear was tested) two of the samples had greater corrosion due to metallurgical incompatibility. If those two were thrown out, the averaged jumped to 5415 lbs. Both are below the 25kn UIAA standard but surprisingly high considering their estimated age of 18-22 years. |
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Kevin Rogers wrote:My primary argument is that I don't endorse the mind-set that if you can't use SS hardware, or SS glue-ins, you shouldn't be bolting anything. (At least in my neck of the woods) That's like saying skiers should only ski green runs, while wearing airbags, in bounds, with a beacon. The simple truth is, like skiing, climbing is inherently dangerous.Your skiing analogy does not fit. A skier who chooses to ski the dangerous slopes is not going to damage the slope because he is making a poor decision, but a developer who uses the wrong material can damage the rock and cause extra work. Bolting with SS hardware is about longevity. You could inspect your plated bolts every six months and replace them as needed but that will cause harm to the rock. Often when bolts are replaced the new bolt is installed right next to the old one, drilling a second, third or even fourth hole. Sometimes the hole can be reused, sometimes it cannot, but in every case it takes a ton of time and effort to go back and fix someone's ghetto rigging. Furthermore, even if you were willing to regularity inspect and replace your plated steel bolts (very unlikely), you wont be around forever and eventually someone is going to have to fix your work because you took shortcuts in the beginning. For what it is worth the UIAA doesent even want 304 stainless steel in use outside. Last I heard, the latest reversion of their age-old bolting standard was that they wanted all anchors to be at least 316SS, even in the desert. |
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Kevin Rogers, |
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Kevin Rogers wrote: Micah Klesick, above is the tech chart for Cobra. The unmodified 1/2" anchors are well above the UIAA standard of 25kn for shear and 20 for pull. Not being argumentative, just making sure the facts are known so people can make an educated decision.I've seen the chart. Yes, its a little above the UIAA standard, in 1/2" only. However, Fixe selling the 3/8" ones is scary to me. 1/2" I can see them justify selling the to developers that insist on using non-stainless. But the 3/8"!? We are talking 12kn and 13kn in pull and shear!! That's not acceptable!! But because they are sold as climbing bolts, people that don't know any better will go do what most developers do, and go buy the cheapest thing that is sold by a climbing store assuming they are strong enough to be used as climbing anchors... You use the 1/2" cobras, and since they are strong enough to meet the UIAA standard, and you bolt in an area where they won't rust as fast, I won't disagree that they are safe to use for climbing. I still disagree that plated is still an option that should be used anywhere, but that's my opinion. That's all. |
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Thomas Beck wrote: I realistically expect the hardware to last about 20 to 25 years.I think that's an unrealistic expectation of plated steel. There are bolts far younger than that in Red Rocks that are not in the best shape. Before the bolts in the Black Corridor of Red Rocks were replaced, a number of them were in pretty bad shape, heavy rust and such, and they were all far younger than 25 years and they were in a desert climate. |
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Tom, PLEASE sell those hangers to someone developing soft sandstone, St. George or secret areas or wherever, and buy stainless for limestone. Even dry desert limestone bolts around Vegas are going to be super rusty below the surface in only 10 years (if not 5 or less!). At least in soft sandstone the water evaporates out through the rock and there is minimal rusting, so they actually should last 20-25 years. Some spots in Red Rocks have good enough varnish that the water is trapped and you get bad rusting, but that's not common except for good black varnish. |
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Thomas Beck, |
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Micah Klesick, |
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20kn, |
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Solace wrote:20kn, Your points are valid and ones I did not consider in my post. There are people out there who will drill right next to an old hole without even trying to reuse the original and I too find that to be ridiculous. I am able to re-use the same hole 75% of the time but of course I also make it a point to try. Your usage of terms like "ghetto hardware" however are exactly what I am referring to. Even stainless anchors will need maintenance, and one day when Ti glue-in anchors are the elite flavor of the month, your SS anchors will be "ghetto" by their standards too. Where will it end? When all climbing anchors are way over priced, over regulated, and companies stop making them because the sales numbers plummet so low that it no longer makes any kind of business sense. Hell, if Powers, arguably the bolting standard for the last 20 years, has already given the climbing community the proverbial finger because we don't make up a large enough customer base to warrant any design input, what makes us think that anyone else will? Simple supply and demand. Now instead of a $5 anchor, you have a $30 Ti anchor that requires a $4 glue cartridge. At that point new route development slows to a crawl (not a tradgedy) but with time, all those "ghetto" bolts we all have been climbing on for decades (and miraculously survived) begin to age out and replacing them with anything but Ti anchors will be difficult because it will be illegal. We can't even afford to replace all the plated anchors with SS, so how do we manage the next level of regulation? We probably don't. Climbs start drying up, within 25 years the catalog of routes is cut in half but the guidebooks are still out there. So kids that wanna get out of the climbing gym and actually touch a rock like their Pappy did end up decking in droves while their buddies post viral videos their favorite social media platform, and overnight kids stop leaving the gym. Well less people at the local crag may seem like a great thing on some days but less real climbers means less people who care about this issue. (Think social security) So in 30 years, you and I can go climb together in our late 60's on one of the 6 routes approved by the UIAA, OSHA, and Green Peace while the kids at school read about the roaring 2000's where people just bolted stuff all day with Ghetto Hardware. Be careful what you wish for my friend. You might just get it.You're being pretty melodramatic. There is a pretty far gap between asking someone to use stainless steel and ending up with an environment where some SS-like authority forces you to choose from one of five state approved sport routes, come on man. Stainless steel is a good happy medium between cost and performance. At least one other developer posted a link where you can get 1/2" stainless steel bolts from Powers for less than $2 each. So we are talking maybe $1.60 each for plated or 15% extra for stainless steel which will last 200-500% longer. I think the price-to-performance ratio is optimal. It's unrealistic to choose the absolute best material for bolting, you're right, but it's not unrealistic to choose a material with a better cost-to-performance ratio than carbon steel, and asking people to use stainless steel is not going to kill climbing, it's just the responsible thing to do. |
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20kn, |
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I read Kevin Daniel's statement as they will not carry the 3/8" cobra as he feels the stud is under sized. |