How to avoid zippering trad gear from the bottom up?

I witnessed a fatal fall in Eldorado in the mid-nineties because of this shortcoming. The leader's belayer was out and away from the wall and he only put in protection that would hold downward pulls. He zippered the pitch from bottom to top. If he had taken the time to build a solid multi-directional piece at the bottom of the pitch or better positioned his belayer, it never would have happened.

WyomingSummits wrote: Let me point out that things can change in an alpine setting. Many times if there is a loose rock or ice hazard, the last place the belayer wants to be is directly under the leaders first piece. That works in the idyllic world of small cragging on heavily traveled trade routes, but in remote settings it could be your death sentence. Practice your pieces for every type of scenario....you don't want to be winging it when the time comes.

In an alpine setting 90%+ of the time you'll be tied into a belay and have minimal choices on where to belay if any at all. The leader will also usually have a directional to prevent zippering built into the anchor. Just sayin.

T Roper wrote: In an alpine setting 90%+ of the time you'll be tied into a belay and have minimal choices on where to belay if any at all. The leader will also usually have a directional to prevent zippering built into the anchor. Just sayin.

Exactly. Which is why I said it's best to practice your placements and get in that habit. Never hurts to cover all the bases. If there has been loose rock, I've picked a hanging belay under an overhand rather than a ledge in the rockfall path.....which causes directional pull on the anchor and first piece if the route works around the hang rather than through it.

JohnnyG wrote: 8. i think it's petty common for nuts to pop out somewhere along a pitch. I see it a lot when I lower off trad climbs.

There's a lesson for you there. Seeing it "a lot" is a wake up call that your nutcraft needs to be improved.

Gunkiemike wrote: There's a lesson for you there. Seeing it "a lot" is a wake up call that your nutcraft needs to be improved.

Fer sure.

Mathias wrote:I would say it really depends on the type of passive pro, the placement, and how hard the first piece is set. Generally, when I set a piece of passive pro I pull it not only in the anticipated direction of fall, but also left, right and straight out. It seems unlikely that the first piece would be subject to a direct upwards pull at high force in the event of a fall (though it will likely have to deal with some slack being pulled up). Then only reason I can think of that it would take force directly upwards would be if the belayer got pulled up and into it. As has been mention there's the option to add an apposing piece. You could also use a tricam. If you set gear in a horizontal placement, this will protect from zippering too. I've spent a number of hours with my rack just practicing setting gear. With all the passive pro once I have the piece set, I'll pull it in all directions to see how it will or won't move. Most of the time even pulling up won't get them moving and need strategic tapping with a nut tool to get them loose. But I've also been told I set gear too hard. Go practice.

I prefer to break the rock before I find out it'll break when I fall on the piece of gear set inside of it LOL!

So, obviously, zippering is way dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. But in this (bottom-up) zipper scenario, wouldn't the top piece tend to hold? It has been weighted by the fallen climber, and has held enough weight/force to pull one or more pieces out below it. Straightening the rope, so it runs from top piece to belayer instead of top piece to previous piece, is going to add an outward vector to the force on the top piece, but won't the climber be below this piece, causing the force to be "mostly" downward?

Obviously this is not how it always plays out. But I'm surprised there aren't more anecdotal observations of everything but the top piece pulling. What am I missing?

I *think* almost all of my nut placements are resistant enough to outward pull that they would hold in this top-piece scenario. I generally do NOT trust my ability to gauge how much outward pull is possible, so I typically do whatever it takes to get a nut placement that is bomber up to 90 degrees from plumb. If I can't achieve that, but don't have any other options, I will sometimes climb above the piece, but I will usually file it in the same category as an ancient pin, purple/gray offset Metolious, wobbly chockstone, etcetera, and climb accordingly.

My experience with traditional hexes vs. nuts is that their typical placements are much less resistant to an outward pull. I own some but never put them on my rack any more.

EDIT: To the OP--DMM offset nuts are 1.5 times as expensive as regular nuts, but vastly superior in most situations. YMMV.

Phil Esra wrote:So, obviously, zippering is way dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. But in this (bottom-up) zipper scenario, wouldn't the top piece tend to hold? It has been weighted by the fallen climber, and has held enough weight/force to pull one or more pieces out below it. Straightening the rope, so it runs from top piece to belayer instead of top piece to previous piece, is going to add an outward vector to the force on the top piece, but won't the climber be below this piece, causing the force to be "mostly" downward? Obviously this is not how it always plays out. But I'm surprised there aren't more anecdotal observations of everything but the top piece pulling. What am I missing? I *think* almost all of my nut placements are resistant enough to outward pull that they would hold in this top-piece scenario. I generally do NOT trust my ability to gauge how much outward pull is possible, so I typically do whatever it takes to get a nut placement that is bomber up to 90 degrees from plumb. If I can't achieve that, but don't have any other options, I will sometimes climb above the piece, but I will usually file it in the same category as an ancient pin, purple/gray offset Metolious, wobbly chockstone, etcetera, and climb accordingly. My experience with traditional hexes vs. nuts is that their typical placements are much less resistant to an outward pull. I own some but never put them on my rack any more.

a bottom up or even a from the middle zipper (external and internal zippers respectively) can lead to a total failure of all gear between u and that deck/ledge) especially if you dont have as many pieces in ...

picture this ...

- climber placed 3 nuts ... bottom one is good, top one is moderate at best (perhaps due to the nature of the climb) .... but the next one that is right below (middle one) is VERY good in a downward pull so the climber thinks hes "safe" due to having 2 pieces at the crux

- climber falls ... belayer who is used to sport belaying (standing a bit away from the wall) or afraid that his climber will fall to far leans back creating a bad angle ...

- bottom pops out as the rope comes under tension ... the middle one shifts upward is is no longer a "very good" placement due to the now more acute angle of the rope

- top nut which wasnt very good pulls ...

- the shifted middle nut which is no longer very good pulls as well

note this can happen with cams a well if you dont extend them in certain situations ... which is how i suspect we get the "multiple X4s (or other cams) failed on a fall"

anyways the point is a zipper (outward pulls) can lead to the weakening of protection of the entire system leading to sequential gear failure ...

a big tell tale sign is if you start having nuts pop out/shift while being lowered ... everybody including yrs truly has made that mistake a few times ... some folks shrug it off and say "well it will hold a downward pull"

yes ... but if the piece above fails and yr nut below has popped out or shifted that that piece may no longer be good ... and the forces on a lead fall are MUCH higher than being lowered

its a bit of a wake up call

(of courses there may be placements where you have no choice but to place a not well extended nut especially above the deck/ledge ... but you better know the risk yr taking)

;)

bearbreeder wrote: a big tell tale sign is if you start having nuts pop out/shift while being lowered ...

I tell new trad leaders to clip through the anchor rather than going in direct, call take, weight the rope and look down. Look at the path that the rope takes when weighted and the resulting direction of force on each piece. Very good feedback.

Climb for joy wrote: Tricam placed actively in a vertical crack is a great idea! Am I wrong in assuming that a tricam placed actively in a horizontal crack would be a bad idea whether the point is facing up or down for a potential upward zipper pull on it? I know a hex placed in a horizontal crack in it's cammed position just pulls out when pulled upwards, so that's a no go.

A tricam placed correctly in a horizontal is considered a multi-directional piece. Maybe, if you didn't set it at all, it could pop from an upward pull but simply activating the camming effect by pulling down on the sling should eliminate this risk. tri-cams placed actively in a vertical crack are slightly less multi-directional because you don't have wall of the crack mitigating the upward pull. that being said, they are usually fine for a slight upward pull and are fine for an outward pull. before i got an cams/tricams i would, while still on the ground, fiddle with opposed nuts to get a multi-directional piece but now i usually either place a cam or tricam for my first piece.

JohnnyG wrote:7. in practice a lot of people don't make that first nut placement multi- directional. It can be a time-consuming and pump-inducing.

The first placement meant to prevent an upward zipper is often - even usually - placed when the leader is still standing on the ground.

JohnnyG wrote:And it's not always necessary. Say for example you have a cruxy thin section followed by some easier terrain with larger cracks. Place a nut or two in the thin crack. Then a cam higher up. The nuts protect you from the fall when you need it, and it might not matter if one or two nuts pop out when you are higher on the pitch.

This approach views the protection as a series of individual pieces protecting individual moves - this is incorrect and potentially dangerous. *All* the pieces on a pitch, coupled with the rope (and the belayer), make up a protection *system*. It is this system that keeps you from getting killed.

JohnnyG wrote:8. i think it's petty common for nuts to pop out somewhere along a pitch. I see it a lot when I lower off trad climbs.

As others have said, you're doing it wrong.

I would like to point out that simply using a cam as the first piece does not mean that it is multidirectional, and suggesting that to people is irresponsible. Yes, cams can be set as multidirectional pieces more easily than passive pieces, but that does not mean that all cam placements are multidirectional or that no passive placements are multidirectional. You can easily set opposing pieces for your first placement, or set one lower that is positioned for an upperward pull.

There's nothing wrong with using an all passive rack, it is not more dangerous than using cams. In some ways cams can be more dangerous for new leaders if they have a false idea of when a cam is safe.