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How to avoid zippering trad gear from the bottom up?

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

Xam: Yep, I understand completely that a foot of extention on that first piece will reduce the severity of the angle from the belayer to the rope direction above the first piece. And although your scenario was purposefully exaggerated, I'll use it for a moment. Instead of the belayer being 10 horizontal feet from the vector, they are now closer to 9 feet from it. So the angle is reduced. How much exactly would depend on where the next placement is relative to both the first piece and the belayer. It just doesn't seem like that much to me, and definitely puts the climber closer to decking if this is a first pitch. Though the belayer being at 45 degrees to the climber's direction of travel (if not using a ground anchor) is even more of a threat to decking IMO.

My thought with regards to slack running through is this: assuming your scenario and that the climber is directly above the first placement, with all subsequent placements in that line (to keep things simple), any slack in the system between the belayer and the first piece, upon a fall, will run through the biner at that piece. If it's a nut with a wire, this run-through seems to me to threaten to lift the piece because of the stiff wire on the nut. With a sling to absorb some of this (by being flexible, loose, and hanging down below the placement) it reduces drag forces on the nut, at least for a short time. That's my thinking anyway. Not a big deal, but it's something.

Climb for joy: I haven't had great success placing hexes in parallel sided cracks (horizontal or vertical) with no features to catch an edge on. Not because they won't hold in one direction of pull but because that's not enough for me. Since I started setting pro, for practice and whilst leading, I've always considered a passive placement acceptable only when it can stand to be pulled not just in the "anticipated direction of fall" but also to either side and straight outwards. I'm not saying I've never used a placement that doesn't meet these criteria, but I prefer not to when possible. This is one of the reasons I decided I just had to get cams. The other reasons was that when I'm in a scary place and getting pumped, a can is often the easiest thing to get in quickly (which I'm sure you already know). I still prefer placing passive pro when I can get it though.

It didn't take long for me to get my head around the concept that the direction of potential forces applied to a piece when it is set are different than they will be after the next piece is in, etc. But visualizing and remembering all of that when leading can be very challenging.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Belayer close to the wall and under the first piece is the most important thing.

If you can get a good horizontal crack placement, these are lift-proof and you are good to go. Threads and slings on trees growing out of the cliff are good too.

I don't think a cam in a vertical crack is guaranteed to be multidirectional, although it will in most cases have more resistance than a nut to upward loads. Expecting a cam to rotate nearly 180 degrees and still stay in is a bit of a gamble, and you should realize you are taking that gamble.

Rigging opposed nuts in a vertical crack is a definite option; I've done it many times (being one of those old farts who climbed for years without cams). Don't forget one can do this low down, perhaps before the first difficulties really begin, maybe even while still on the ledge or ground, i.e. don't wait until you really need pro and then start trying to rig this.

Getting vertically opposed nuts properly tensioned can be a problem. I've found the best solution is the so-called Garda Hitch. Put two carabiners on the top nut, run a thin sling from the bottom nut up to the two carabiners and wrap a Garda hitch. Pull tight, and you're set to go. You can do all this one-handed by the way (if you can get the upward-pull piece to stick while you are rigging).

Slinging becomes important when the rock structure causes the lifting. I think the case easiest to overlook is a piece placed at the juncture of a slab that abuts a steeper wall. The best you can do is to visualize straight lines between protection pieces. If three successive pieces are labeled 1, 2, and 3 starting from the bottom, then if the carabiner from piece number 2 doesn't lie on the straight line from 1 to 3, piece number 2 is likely to be lifted and needs a sling. Of course, to make this work you have to have a sense of where piece number three is going to be when clipping piece number 2. Sometimes, it is necessary or at least advisable to climb down and lengthen a connection.

Placing a piece that zippers is, I think, the most common mistake experienced climbers make.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
LCC-Climber wrote:Place your first piece with an upward pull direction and a long sling
If you're going to place a low piece for an upward pull, a short sling will protect the higher pieces better than slinging it long. Slinging it long will allow the rope to pull out from the wall more than a short sling and will cause more outward pull on higher pieces than it would if the bottom sling were short.
Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
Climb for joy wrote:I've searched a lot on this forum and I can't seem to find a discussion about this.
Am I wrong, or does zippering from the bottom up just not happen as much as it used to? Amongst people I've talked to, I remember exactly one instance of somebody seeing somebody else do this.

Something must be working better, and I doubt it's the climbers.
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60
Colonel Mustard wrote: Am I wrong, or does zippering from the bottom up just not happen as much as it used to? Amongst people I've talked to, I remember exactly one instance of somebody seeing somebody else do this. Something must be working better, and I doubt it's the climbers.
I recently watched a video of a climber calling and 3 pieces pulled on a fall. The top piece and the two lowest. There were still a half dozen placements still good though. So while I bet the advent of SLCds has a lot to do with the decline of zippering, I imagine awareness is the biggest factor.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

place a cam pretty soon ... first or second piece if possible ...

vary up cams and nuts ...

sling the pieces when needed ...

get a competent TRAD belayer ...

if yr really worried built a mini multidirectional anchor/piece at critical spots ...

also know the difference between and external (bottom up) and internal (from the "centre") zipper ... and an un-zipper (top down sequential gear failure)

;)

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I've seen the bottom piece pull a bunch of times, but no true zippering in the sense that it was the only piece to go.

I've also seen a zipper or two starting in mid-pitch, here "zipper" meaning two pieces pop.

But I wouldn't say any of it is frequent. No doubt cams (my cautions above notwithstandig) have reduced zippage.

Scott O · · Anchorage · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 70
Climb for joy wrote: Bloody brilliant! Thank you! You'd think I would have thought of equalized opposing nuts in a vertical crack considering I've been reading and participating in the nuts in horizontal cracks post. Adequate slinging is a huge factor to minimize the risk of zippering. Can you go into more detail as to why slinging minimizes this problem? My understanding was that extending a piece of pro with a sling or alpine quickdraw was only necessary if it is placed too far off to either side and you need to keep the rope path straight to minimize rope drag and potentially pulling the piece out, or you have a piece set below an overhang for the same reason. Thanks for all the ideas! Tricam placed actively in a vertical crack is a great idea! Am I wrong in assuming that a tricam placed actively in a horizontal crack would be a bad idea whether the point is facing up or down for a potential upward zipper pull on it? I know a hex placed in a horizontal crack in it's cammed position just pulls out when pulled upwards, so that's a no go. And yes, lot's of base of the cliff pro placement practicing will be happening and some has happened so far. I'm also planning on placing pro between bolts of sport lead climbs, clipping into it and doing some test falling on it to see how well pieces hold with my placement and the rock it's in.
A tricam placed actively in a horizontal is bomber.
Larry DeAngelo · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Nov 2002 · Points: 5,285

Some useful gear suggestions here, but for completeness it is worth mentioning the most effective way-- as ancient wisdom points out: the leader does not fall...

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
Larry DeAngelo wrote:Some useful gear suggestions here, but for completeness it is worth mentioning the most effective way-- as ancient wisdom points out: the leader does not fall...
What my question above is hinting at is that though the leader does accept falling on gear more nowadays, the occurrence of zippering would seem far less. I do not know if there is data to support my thoughts, so whether it is awareness and/or gear evolution I could not say.
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60
Colonel Mustard wrote: What my question above is hinting at is that though the leader does accept falling on gear more nowadays, the occurrence of zippering would seem far less. I do not know if there is data to support my thoughts, so whether it is awareness and/or gear evolution I could not say.
Every new trad partner I've climbed with asked if I knew what zippering was within the first few moments of pulling gear out at the base of the climb. I've taken to doing the same. I think it is a good question to ask to see if people understand that the gear is a system from belayer to leader, rather than a single unit that is their last placement.

I've seen a few lower down cams get rotated 60 degrees or so into a more out, rather than down, position on a take. Pretty sure a nut would have pulled. But SLCDs came out when I was learning to count to 100, so what do I know about zippering in a time without cams.
Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
Eliot Augusto wrote: Every new trad partner I've climbed with asked if I knew what zippering was within the first few moments of pulling gear out at the base of the climb.
That's exactly my experience. Well, substitute "Every" with "No", but I don't want to parse hairs here, I'm looking for commonalities.

I'd be interested in the prevalence of zippering if anybody has actual figures or a good sense of where the trend has gone.
Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100
rgold wrote: I've done it many times (being one of those old farts who climbed for years without cams).
Good lord, man, do you have the faintest idea how irresponsible you were being by climbing without springy widgets? "They weren't invented yet" is NOT a valid excuse.

Frankly, anyone climbing now, using current gear, is taking unacceptable risks by climbing before the advent of the safer gear of the future. You are all guilty of poor risk assessment and should be ashamed.
Jburton · · Ogden · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
Colonel Mustard wrote: Am I wrong, or does zippering from the bottom up just not happen as much as it used to? Amongst people I've talked to, I remember exactly one instance of somebody seeing somebody else do this. Something must be working better, and I doubt it's the climbers.
I've seen it once, on the Green Adjective in LCC...thin crack, small nuts clipped with draws, leader falls and all but the last piece popped up. That was enough for me. Any question of zippering and I'll throw in an upward pull piece.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Phil Esra wrote: Good lord, man, do you have the faintest idea how irresponsible you were being by climbing without springy widgets? "They weren't invented yet" is NOT a valid excuse.
Its worse than that even. I refused to use them for quite a while after they were invented, thereby achieving new heights (or should it be depths) of irresponsibility.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

That is funny, I did too Rich. They made things too easy! I got over it when my partner bought me a whole set of Friends ! That meant three !

I've seen sideways zippers too. Saw a guy fall in the tight corner at the end of Turner's Flake, where it's small gear, and as the rope tightened it lifted several pieces out along the flake, adding a lot to the fall.

The multi-directional first piece, or upslot piece, was a basic trad leading skill almost everyone knew about and practiced. In my experience standing close to the cliff came later as an option when there was no upshot/upslot piece.

Also back then we always anchored the belayer to a tree or boulder.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
LCC-Climber wrote: I've seen it once, on the Green Adjective in LCC...thin crack, small nuts clipped with draws, leader falls and all but the last piece popped up. That was enough for me. Any question of zippering and I'll throw in an upward pull piece.
Excellent example, The Green A is where I learned to put in an upward directional. Its also where I learned to insist the belayer stand next to the rock instead of chillin on the ledge 10-15' back in toprope position.
WyomingSummits · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0

I took a 15 footer on Devils Tower a few weeks ago and no pro zippered. Belayer was directly under my first piece....which was 2 nuts in opposition. Nothing pulled. I know clean vertical cracks are a different animal because having a clean line for your gear helps mitigate directional forces under loading, but the rope cane tight on the bottom ppieces and they held. Let me point out that things can change in an alpine setting. Many times if there is a loose rock or ice hazard, the last place the belayer wants to be is directly under the leaders first piece. That works in the idyllic world of small cragging on heavily traveled trade routes, but in remote settings it could be your death sentence. Practice your pieces for every type of scenario....you don't want to be winging it when the time comes.

WyomingSummits · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
Phil Esra wrote: Good lord, man, do you have the faintest idea how irresponsible you were being by climbing without springy widgets? "They weren't invented yet" is NOT a valid excuse. Frankly, anyone climbing now, using current gear, is taking unacceptable risks by climbing before the advent of the safer gear of the future. You are all guilty of poor risk assessment and should be ashamed.
Lol! Yeah....all those clowns in the 60's who were driving without airbags should be publicly flogged for not being patient!
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

this has to be covered in some books on lead climbing, right? Crack climbing by Lisa Gnad has some info, but I didn't see any good figures on this.

Replies so far don't cover the whole issue, so I'll try to add a few points to further discussion.

1. Your first piece should be multidirectional whether it's a cam or a nut.

2. If you take a sharp turn higher up on a pitch, that piece should be multidirectional too.

3. many cams placements are not good for an outward pull so don't think you are in the clear just because you placed a cam

4. you can place nuts opposing nuts so that one nut protects your fall as nuts normally down (a downward force). And the other nut holds against an outward or upward force. This other nut has a tendency to wiggle out because gravity isn't holding it in place. So people tend to hold it up by a sling connected to the nut that protects the fall.

5. this is fundamental skill that trad leaders should know

6. several pitches are protected only by nuts at the start, thus you really should know this skill. You don't want to be 5 pieces up and have all but your 5th piece pop out if you fall.

7. in practice a lot of people don't make that first nut placement multi- directional. It can be a time-consuming and pump-inducing. And it's not always necessary. Say for example you have a cruxy thin section followed by some easier terrain with larger cracks. Place a nut or two in the thin crack. Then a cam higher up. The nuts protect you from the fall when you need it, and it might not matter if one or two nuts pop out when you are higher on the pitch.

8. i think it's petty common for nuts to pop out somewhere along a pitch. I see it a lot when I lower off trad climbs.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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