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How to avoid zippering trad gear from the bottom up?

Original Post
Orphaned · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 11,560

I've searched a lot on this forum and I can't seem to find a discussion about this. My understanding is that to avoid this life threatening situation for the leader, the belayer has to be positioned as close to directly under the first piece of rock protection placed with no pulling off to the side or away from the wall, even when "take" is called.

Yet when talking with some local climbers and telling them about my all passive trad rack, which is what I can afford this year until cams are in the budget for next year, there is mentioned some concern about not having a multi-directional piece of pro, like a cam, placed as the first piece to avoid zippering from the bottom up. Now we all know that people climbed trad before there were cams, so there has to be more to this than meets the eye. And I do understand that pro needs to be set at angle to take both a downward and some pulling away from the wall force on a fall.

I also question how this is avoided on anything between slab and almost vertical climbs, and climbs where the ground and features force the belayer to be away from the wall and not almost under the first piece of pro.

I'd love to read some discussion about this. Thanks, and have at it! :)

Steven Lee · · El Segundo, CA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 385

Opposing nuts.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

You can set up a multidirectional with passive pro. Two nuts/stoppers in opposed directions, and using slings and carabiners bring them together to act as one.

Make this your first piece and it will have the ability to resist the upward pull in the case of a fall.

Jon Po · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 255

I think the best way to truly avoid the "zipper", is to place good gear.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Adequate slinging is a huge factor to minimize the risk of zippering.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
JonP756 wrote:I think the best way to truly avoid the "zipper", is to place good gear.
He's not discussing the zippering of bad gear (top down), but rather avoiding zippering bottom up, even if the top piece holds. This is best done by adequate slinging and placing multidirectional gear to prevent outward or sideward pull on a tensioned rope. I guess you could argue that this all constitutes "good gear", but I tend to think of it as a good entire system which also includes good individual pieces.
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

I would say it really depends on the type of passive pro, the placement, and how hard the first piece is set.

Generally, when I set a piece of passive pro I pull it not only in the anticipated direction of fall, but also left, right and straight out. It seems unlikely that the first piece would be subject to a direct upwards pull at high force in the event of a fall (though it will likely have to deal with some slack being pulled up). Then only reason I can think of that it would take force directly upwards would be if the belayer got pulled up and into it.

As has been mention there's the option to add an apposing piece. You could also use a tricam. If you set gear in a horizontal placement, this will protect from zippering too.

I've spent a number of hours with my rack just practicing setting gear. With all the passive pro once I have the piece set, I'll pull it in all directions to see how it will or won't move. Most of the time even pulling up won't get them moving and need strategic tapping with a nut tool to get them loose. But I've also been told I set gear too hard.

Go practice.

Jon Po · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 255

If you place multi directional pieces it's a non-issue.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

Or make sure your belayer is tight to the cliff putting them in postion to be your directional.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
JonP756 wrote:If you place multi directional pieces it's a non-issue.
That's not always possible or practical. Especially with passive gear, and especially when the climbing is hard enough that you don't have time to mess around with oppositional pieces. Key multi-directional pieces are necessary, but really just part of a system that includes belayer positioning and slinging your gear. IMO, your statement is over-simplifying things just a little.
Xam · · Boulder, Co · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 76
Mathias wrote:It seems unlikely that the first piece would be subject to a direct upwards pull at high force in the event of a fall (though it will likely have to deal with some slack being pulled up). Then only reason I can think of that it would take force directly upwards would be if the belayer got pulled up and into it.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you understand the issue. I didn't understand it either until it happened to me while resting on a piece and watching my lower nut pop up and out.

Simple vector math but pardon the contrived illustrative construction. Imagine a belayer standing away from the base by 10 feet. Imagine a first piece 10 feet up. For the sake of the construction, no sling on the first piece. 45 degree angle from belayer to first piece. All the other pieces directly above the first piece. Leader fall. The force on that first piece is now 22.5 degrees up from horizontal, which is well enough to pop even a quality nut placement that is orientated to take a downward fall. You need an piece in opposition or a very well placed cam that will not rotate out. Try testing your nuts by pulling up and out and see how many you now trust to take this kind of load.
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
Climb for joy wrote:Yet when talking with some local climbers and telling them about my all passive trad rack, which is what I can afford this year until cams are in the budget for next year, there is mentioned some concern about not having a multi-directional piece of pro, like a cam, placed as the first piece to avoid zippering from the bottom up.
They are right to be concerned. Just because something was done back in the day, and most of them seemed to have survived, doesn't mean it's the right choice. Always worth remembering that a leader falling was a much more serious prospect in those days than it necessarily is today.

Opposed nuts are handy occasionally, but often impractically fiddly and slow, and maybe impossible. Having a belayer close to the wall will help a lot with the direction of pull, which is definitely something you should do regardless (barring other complications). These tricks might keep you safe enough for a while, are good to know in a pinch, and can get you climbing a bit while you save up enough for something better.

The real answer is that in 2015, there is little excuse for climbing with exclusively passive pro. Active pro was a paradigm shift in climbing protection. Buy the rack you're going to want to use for a decade. In the meantime, while funds are low, make friends with gear, and partner up and borrow. Learn the right way the first time.
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60

You can always place a piece below anything that you would use to catch a fall. Instead of having it oriented to pull down, have it pull out and stand a bit further away from the wall. You have to make sure that it is the second(top is first) piece with tension in a fall though. I've had to do this a couple of times in the past on semi-hanging belays followed by a gearless traverse. You have to make sure it is a bomber piece, its very situational, and you'll probably need to unclip it when the leader is farther up the route to avoid heinous rope drag.

I have a small assortment of small to .5 nuts/tricams on a single biner that I use while I'm belaying. Hanging backpacks, redirects, and most importantly...to brag about my tricams to my second. The tricams could be considered omni-directional I guess.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306
Xam wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you understand the issue. I didn't understand it either until it happened to me while resting on a piece and watching my lower nut pop up and out. Simple vector math but pardon the contrived illustrative construction. Imagine a belayer standing away from the base by 10 feet. Imagine a first piece 10 feet up. For the sake of the construction, no sling on the first piece. 45 degree angle from belayer to first piece. All the other pieces directly above the first piece. Leader fall. The force on that first piece is now 22.5 degrees up from horizontal, which is well enough to pop even a quality nut placement that is orientated to take a downward fall. You need an piece in opposition or a very well placed cam that will not rotate out. Try testing your nuts by pulling up and out and see how many you now trust to take this kind of load.
Thanks for addressing this and the explanation. I do understand that a certain amount of upwards force may be involved,depending on the situation, and certainly in the scenario you described. Which is why I said *direct* upwards pull. But this is why I test my passive pro pulling straight out. And were my belayer ever to be at such a severe angle from my direction of travel, I would be taking extra care with that first piece.

Slinging the first piece seems like it could alleviate some of the issue, but then again, wouldn't that sling simple get pulled taught in the direction of force and then be of no help at all. I can see the sling mitigating some of the slack running through at that first piece, and possibly reduce some shock to the piece, but at the moment the system (and the first piece) is loaded, it doesn't seem it would be of much benefit. Am I wrong, and if so, how?
Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
shoo wrote: The real answer is that in 2015, there is little excuse for climbing with exclusively passive pro. Active pro was a paradigm shift in climbing protection. Buy the rack you're going to want to use for a decade. In the meantime, while funds are low, make friends with gear, and partner up and borrow. Learn the right way the first time.
Exactly. There's a reason every guidebook published in the last 20 years describes a "standard rack" as one with cams. You climb without cams when you're looking for a little challenge or to drop weight AFTER you've spent a few years learning the basics. You don't climb without cams because you can't afford to buy them. Climb with those who've got them, hopefully people with lots of experience willing to mentor you. Otherwise stick to the sport routes til you've saved enough scrill to complete your standard rack.
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306
Bold Text
Climb for joy wrote: Thanks for all the ideas! Tricam placed actively in a vertical crack is a great idea! Am I wrong in assuming that a tricam placed actively in a horizontal crack would be a bad idea whether the point is facing up or down for a potential upward zipper pull on it? I know a hex placed in a horizontal crack in it's cammed position just pulls out when pulled upwards, so that's a no go. And yes, lot's of base of the cliff pro placement practicing will be happening and some has happened so far. I'm also planning on placing pro between bolts of sport lead climbs, clipping into it and doing some test falling on it to see how well pieces hold with my placement and the rock it's in.
CAMP claims that tricams set actively in a horizontal crack can be set either point up or point down with the same effect. I think orientation or the point and rails to best take advantage of the natural features available is more important than orientation.

Regarding hexes, I can only comment on my experience with DMM Torque Nuts (which are designed slightly differently than others I've seen). But my experience has been that set well in a slight constriction or with an edge to pivot against, they are fairly resistant to pulls straight out and often upwards too, in vertical cracks, and sometime horizontal cracks too.
Xam · · Boulder, Co · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 76
Mathias wrote: Thanks for addressing this and the explanation. I do understand that a certain amount of upwards force may be involved,depending on the situation, and certainly in the scenario you described. Which is why I said *direct* upwards pull. But this is why I test my passive pro pulling straight out. And were my belayer ever to be at such a severe angle from my direction of travel, I would be taking extra care with that first piece.


Of course! I am sure you have great passive pro setting skills. It is just important to point out that any amount of upward force will result in zippering if there is nothing to oppose it...does not matter if most of the force is outward.

Mathias wrote: Slinging the first piece seems like it could alleviate some of the issue, but then again, wouldn't that sling simple get pulled taught in the direction of force and then be of no help at all. I can see the sling mitigating some of the slack running through at that first piece, and possibly reduce some shock to the piece, but at the moment the system (and the first piece) is loaded, it doesn't seem it would be of much benefit. Am I wrong, and if so, how?
Just work through the geometry. Slinging that first piece will reduce the angles of the rope line at first piece which in turn reduces amount of upward force at that piece. It is unclear to me how slack comes into play as that is just a function how what is going on with the belayer but maybe I am missing something. On a practical note through, people will commonly reduce or eliminate the slingage on a first piece to reduce the chance of a ground or ledge fall, so having a first piece with minimal slingage is not uncommon.

The construction is contrived and severe to be illustrative. However, it is pretty easy to show that a belayer ANY distance away from the base of the climb in this setup will induce some amount of upward force on the first piece. Question is whether or not there is enough force to lift out that first piece.
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Xam wrote:Simple vector math but pardon the contrived illustrative construction. Imagine a belayer standing away from the base by 10 feet. Imagine a first piece 10 feet up. For the sake of the construction, no sling on the first piece. 45 degree angle from belayer to first piece. All the other pieces directly above the first piece. Leader fall. The force on that first piece is now 22.5 degrees up from horizontal, which is well enough to pop even a quality nut placement that is orientated to take a downward fall. You need an piece in opposition or a very well placed cam that will not rotate out. Try testing your nuts by pulling up and out and see how many you now trust to take this kind of load.
A picture is worth a thousand words! Maybe this picture below will help illustrate your point. When the leader fell in this picture, the vector sum of the forces on each piece (except the top) is an outward pull. If the top piece in this picture is directly above the piece below it, then the piece below it may even have an slight upward pull (depending on the actual angle of the rope, friction in the biner, and all that details).

If the pieces are all passive pro placed for a downward pull only, then all except the very top piece may be pulled out by the outward force. Zippering due to belayer pulling on the first in a large angle is just one manifestation of this problem, but any time the rope is not running straight through a clipping point will have the same issue: for example if the route is wandering, if the route traverses, etc. Although we probably don't consider these other situations “zippering”, they result from the same vector force.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

The picture is worth a thousand words, and it is also important to remember to apply the concept in 3 dimensions. The rope path will straighten left-right as well as forward-backward. So slinging will minimize the inward pull by keeping the rope path more straight, while multi-directional pieces will resist the inward pull.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Climb for joy wrote:Tricam placed actively in a vertical crack is a great idea! Am I wrong in assuming that a tricam placed actively in a horizontal crack would be a bad idea whether the point is facing up or down for a potential upward zipper pull on it?
Actually, tricam in a vertical placement (be it passive or active) is not considered multi-directional, unless you can be absolutely sure that it will not rotate out of its placement. Too often though, even a tightly cammed tricam in a vertical crack will rotate and become loose and rattling, personally I wouldn’t trust a vertically placed tricam (or any cam for that matter) as multi-directional. On the other hand, a tricam placed actively in a horizontal placement is often a great multi-directional piece, especially if you can place the tip and the rail of the tricam behind some constrictions or irregularities to cam them against. Whether to place it tip up or tip down depends on what constriction and irregularity you can find, in this configuration, the tricam will resist a downward, outward, and upward pull.

Another great passive multi-directional placement is a horizontal slot for a nut (or a hex if you can find one big enough), in which you push the nut in, slide it sideways pass some constriction, and pull it forward against another constriction. Essentially you are looking for a place in a horizontal crack where you have constriction to the left, right, and in front of the nut, so the only way to remove the nut is to push it toward the back of the crack then move it sideways. This type of placement is rare and takes a keen eye to find, but if you can get one, it’s about as good of a passive multi-directional as you can get (good for downward, outward, upward, left, and right pull).
Jburton · · Ogden · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0

Place your first piece with an upward pull direction and a long sling

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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