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Making the "pinch method" (belaying with a Grigri) safer?

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
aikibujin wrote: Yep, it sure seems like you're arguing for argument's sake when you're pointing out something I've already said. To save you some time looking, from the very top of the current page: "The main issue I have with the 'pinch method' is that by holding down the cam all the time, the belayer risks overriding the assisted braking action of the Grigri." The danger of clenching the cam has been discussed many times on MP and elsewhere, I simply don't feel like we need to rehash it again here. I never claimed this is some new, ground breaking, special belay technique I've discovered. Like I said "I wouldn't be surprised if some people are doing this already without knowing it", but I haven't found anything written about it. Point me to some discussion on this method (maybe by you?) will be a sure fire way to shut me up. In the meantime, to correct one statement you made earlier, you can in fact feed out slack in the modified grip without putting the thumb on the cam. Again, that was the whole point to this modification: to put the Grigri in a position to feed out slack without pressing down on the cam all of the time. Maybe somehow I didn't express my points clearly in the first post, so let me summarize it for you as succinctly as I can: I'm not recommending this for everyone. Only for the people who currently belay while holding the Grigri the whole time, I suggest this as a safer way to hold the Grigri and pay out slack, without having to depress the cam all the time. Thanks for reading, drift on!
and your "modified" method does does nothing to improve the "safety" while actually feeding quickly, you still need the thumb on the cam ... you wont be able to feed without the cam depressed on thick fuzzy stiff ropes

heres a recent dicussion about keeping the thumb off the cam/catch for the grigri AND the smart unless you are feeding ... ask yourself what "keeping the thumb off the cam except when feeding" with the "fast feed" looks like (hint it looks exactly like yr picture)

recent discussion

even those experienced MPers who do belay in the "fast feed" method all the time ... they better damn well know not to always keep the thumb on the catch when not feeding ...

they just dont feel the need to write a whole new thread claiming something thats pretty obvious

;)
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
bearbreeder wrote: and your "modified" method does does nothing to improve the "safety" while actually feeding quickly, you still need the thumb on the cam ... you wont be able to feed without the cam depressed on thick fuzzy stiff ropes
No current methods do anything to improve the "safety" while the cam is depressed, yours included. Am I actually missing something here we don't agree on? You seem to have a habit of presenting a pretty obvious statement as some sort of counter point, when no one is actually arguing for that point. But I do have one helpful suggestion for you: don't lead on that thick fuzzy rope you seem to have so much trouble with. Make it a TR only rope or a dog (bear?) leash. Get yourself a new thinner rope for leading, something that actually works well with your Grigri. It's just common sense.

bearbreeder wrote:heres a recent dicussion about keeping the thumb off the cam/catch for the grigri AND the smart unless you are feeding ... ask yourself what "keeping the thumb off the cam except when feeding" with the "fast feed" looks like (hint it looks exactly like yr picture) even those experienced MPers who do belay in the "fast feed" method all the time ... they better damn well know not to always keep the thumb on the catch when not feeding ... they just dont feel the need to write a whole new thread claiming something thats pretty obvious ;)
So quoting straight from this other discussion: "however if you do use the latter... keep the thumb off the catch unless you are feeding the rope, same as keeping the thumb off the cam on the grigri unless fast feeding". That's it? It's not a very good description, is it? Basically the same thing you've been rehashing over here. Yes, WE GET IT! Keep the thumb off the cam. But how? If you simply hold the Grigri between your thumb and index finger and then move your thumb off the Grigri, it will just fall right off your index finger from rope movement. But you know what, I'm going to cut you some slack. From my experience in teaching people movement and technique in martial arts, I know for a fact that some people are very good with performing a move or a technique, yet they cannot describe the mechanics of the movement very well to others. Maybe you're one of them. Maybe you in fact do this like you claimed, you just don't know how to describe it. I'm kind of thick in the head, I like to break down every technique into the smallest and most subtle movements: how to tension your arm, when to turn your wrist, what angle to step with your feet, etc. That was how I taught martial arts, I'm sure anyone who teaches precise movement like dance or martial arts will understand. Call me a fool for wasting so much time on something so small, let's move on.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
aikibujin wrote: No current methods do anything to improve the "safety" while the cam is depressed, yours included. Am I actually missing something here we don't agree on? You seem to have a habit of presenting a pretty obvious statement as some sort of counter point, when no one is actually arguing for that point. But I do have one helpful suggestion for you: don't lead on that thick fuzzy rope you seem to have so much trouble with. Make it a TR only rope or a dog (bear?) leash. Get yourself a new thinner rope for leading, something that actually works well with your Grigri. It's just common sense. So quoting straight from this other discussion: "however if you do use the latter... keep the thumb off the catch unless you are feeding the rope, same as keeping the thumb off the cam on the grigri unless fast feeding". That's it? It's not a very good description, is it? Basically the same thing you've been rehashing over here. Yes, WE GET IT! Keep the thumb off the cam. But how? If you simply hold the Grigri between your thumb and index finger and then move your thumb off the Grigri, it will just fall right off your index finger from rope movement. But you know what, I'm going to cut you some slack. From my experience in teaching people movement and technique in martial arts, I know for a fact that some people are very good with performing a move or a technique, yet they cannot describe the mechanics of the movement very well to others. Maybe you're one of them. Maybe you in fact do this like you claimed, you just don't know how to describe it. I'm kind of thick in the head, I like to break down every technique into the smallest and most subtle movements: how to tension your arm, when to turn your wrist, what angle to step with your feet, etc. That was how I taught martial arts, I'm sure anyone who teaches precise movement like dance or martial arts will understand. Call me a fool for wasting so much time on something so small, let's move on.
Well i dun know about you, but myself i figured out yr "modfied" method after the first few times i tried petzls "fast feed" method after it came out

It went something like this ...

- try the recommended fast feed ...

- ooo my rope is nice and slick ... I dont need to hold down the cam to pull it through slowly while in the "fast feed" position

- hey i still need to keep my thumb on the cam when feeding quickly

- oh ... It doesnt seem to work when the rope is thicker, fuzzier and stiffer .... Hmmmm

- hey guys look at my cool "modified" technique !!! ... Oh what yoube been doing it for years like that already?

Again to be blunt any reasonable method will work when the rope is nice thin and supple .... Including the recommended method

Its when you have a partner that has that well used mammut galaxy or maxim glider that your proficiency with these devices will be tested on the feeding

Martial arts? POWPOWPOW ... I know krottay!!!

;)
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
aikibujin wrote: You seem to have a habit of presenting a pretty obvious statement as some sort of counter point, when no one is actually arguing for that point.
you must be new here!
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
T Roper wrote: you must be new here!
Yes, I learned my lesson: don’t waste time trying to have a logical discussion with someone who cannot grasp that concept.

Bearbreeder:
Water is wet.
Sun is bright.
Ouch! Fire is hot.
Ouch! Fire is hot.
Ouch! Fire is hot.
(Repeat...)
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Climb for joy wrote:I think your method makes perfect sense as long as you are practiced enough to quickly and easily get your thumb back on the cam to feed rope when needed.
In this modified grip, the thumb only needs to move a couple of inches to get on and off the cam. With just a little practice the belayer can get their thumb on the cam faster from this position than from gripping the brake strand ATC-like. Also in my experience, most of the time you don’t even need to press down on the cam to feed out slack.

Climb for joy wrote:For the life of me I don't understand what Petzl's gripe with your slightly modified technique is. In my mind it adds an extra level of safety. And... It's the same as what they recommend except your thumb is not on the cam when you are not feeding rope. Their arguments against it make no sense to me. Weird that they would give those critiques about it unless it is a "legal" response so they are not held liable for accidents with the device.
The reply I got from Petzl was from one of their technicians, not their legal. He was genuinely interested in discussing the technical aspect of things, and not just trying to protect Petzl from a liability point of view. But I can understand where Petzl is coming from. If you put yourself in their shoes, Petzl is trying hard to get people out of the habit of belaying while holding the Grigri at all times. They send posters to climbing gyms, put up illustrations, instructional webpages, and videos to tell people not to do it. This modified grip is visually so similar to pinching the Grigri in your hand, most people probably cannot tell the difference without someone pointing it out. The last thing Petzl would want is to spend all that effort telling belayers not to hold the Grigri, then ok’s a method that looks just like holding the Grigri at a glance. Their fear of misuse is probably valid too, with the thumb so close to the cam, it will be easy for someone not paying attention to slip back to holding down the cam all the time. But I’m glad you agree that it adds some level of safety.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
aikibujin wrote: Yes, I learned my lesson: don’t waste time trying to have a logical discussion with someone who cannot grasp that concept. Bearbreeder: Water is wet. Sun is bright. Ouch! Fire is hot. Ouch! Fire is hot. Ouch! Fire is hot. (Repeat...)
aikibujin:

hey folks ... this is some SPECIAL technique is just figured out !!!

hey ... i asked petzl and they dont really recommend it ... but im gonna keep at it anyways

what? this stupid breeder of bears says hes seen folks using it for years and used it himself???? ... fcuk him

hey what? ... he says its as simply a keeping the thumb off the "fast feed" method off the cam ... screw him i need to write an entire thread about it and every little movement just like in my martial arts !!!

whut? ... he says that i need to keep the thumb on the cam anyways for fast feeding and ropes that arent nice, thin and supple, meaning theres no real advantage? ... screw him, everyone on MP should only use nice thin slick ropes !!!

hey i dun like the FACTS hes pointing out .. lets get into PERSONAL ATTACKS !!!

Climb for joy wrote:I think your method makes perfect sense as long as you are practiced enough to quickly and easily get your thumb back on the cam to feed rope when needed. For the life of me I don't understand what Petzl's gripe with your slightly modified technique is. In my mind it adds an extra level of safety. And... It's the same as what they recommend except your thumb is not on the cam when you are not feeding rope. Their arguments against it make no sense to me. Weird that they would give those critiques about it unless it is a "legal" response so they are not held liable for accidents with the device.
no the recommended petzl method is "safer" as you only have the thumb on the cam on the actual fast feed ...

you do not park the thumb on the cam, but return to the ATC like position after you finish the fast feed (new method, old method also returns to that position)

....

whether folks want to use this "modified" method or the "recommended" (old or new) method is between them and their partners

one little thing i will say about this "modified" method and the "always use in fast feed" method is that they arent the best on multi as belaying "ATC style" as per the recommended petz allows you to constantly shake out the rope and drop loops ... which is pretty important to smooth feeding at belays with stacked ropes

yes weve tried it on multi =P

perhaps one should take the time to learn to belay properly with the recommended petzl technique ... after all belaying is the most important thing youll evern do climbing with another persons life in yr hands

youtube.com/watch?v=i6EzpBa…

;)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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