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Stoppers in Horizontal Cracks

joshf · · missoula, mt · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 790

you can also place two nuts offsetting each other (basically a triangle with the point coming out to you) and equalize them with a long sling. This prevents some of the side to side wiggle that can make nuts slide out of a good placement.

Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45

When placing a nut in a horizontal I like to put the curved side down (if it has one). I've heard this called an 'active' nut placement since the curved side can help the nut cam against the walls of the crack. Definitely you still want a constriction on the lip though

JK- Branin · · NYC-ish · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 56
Mattberr wrote:Tricams.
Hell. Yes. Forever.
JacksonLandFill Wood · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 40

Thanks to William for starting this thread, never would I have thought of stacking nuts.

Panda Express · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30

Anyone legitimately use stacked placements in an important setting? I've done some alpine stuff where I need to be creative, but I've never even thought about trying a stack. I'll be impressed to hear if anyone actually does this.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

There is anecdotal evidence that stacked nuts cause core-shots.

Panda Express · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30

What's a core shot?

Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090
Ray Pinpillage wrote:There is anecdotal evidence that stacked nuts cause core-shots.
So do hexes in horizontals and tree cams in "passive" mode
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Panda Express wrote:What's a core shot?
Depends on who you ask but the nuevo definition is anything that causes misplaced anxiety or an increase in heart rate.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Nuts in horizontal cracks is kinda like the horizontal Chinese vagina myth. Maybe, maybe not. But when used correctly they work just fine.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

+1 for tricams. Wonderful invention.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
William Kramer wrote: I have always been told that you can't use stoppers or hexes in horizontal cracks because of force direction, or in other words if you fall on a stopper in a horizontal it will pull out. I have seen many pictures and videos on youtube and such with these pro pieces in horizontals with no issue, so question is, can you use them in horizontal?
It sounds as if you are getting advice from folks who don't know what they're talking about.

Obviously, you can only place a stopper in a horizontal crack if the crack has features that will allow the stopper to wedge somehow. The best type of feature is a "keyhole," a formation in which the crack is narrower in front than in back, but with a widening to one or both sides that allows the stopper to be pushed in, slid sideways, and then pulled back out and into place at the keyhole.

Keyhole placements, when you can find them, are arguably the best placements there are, because unlike nut placements in vertical cracks, they cannot lift out, and they are usually stronger, more secure, and more reliable than cams.

If you can't get a keyhole placement, then a cam is usually going to be a better bet, but there are fiddly things you can arrange. The standard one is opposed stoppers, when the horizontal has constriction that will allow stoppers to be placed to resist opposing horizontal loads. Such placements can also be very good (i.e. better than cams), but they usually require more effort to set up and consume two pieces of gear.

I gotta laugh at the enthusiam for those super old-school opposed stoppers. They do work, but take two hands to set up most of the time so aren't very practical in general. Once cams happened we all pretty much stopped using them.
Deimos · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 35

Aside from being more likely to have a good placement option in a horizontal crack, another advantage of tricams over nuts is that they do not have wires to be damaged by the edge of the crack. When given a choice, one could also place the tricam so that its sling wraps over the top rather than under the bottom, which slightly reduces the bend in the sling at the edge of the crack.

Jeremy Bauman · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,067

I climbed Bruja's Brew in Red Rocks the other day and had to use opposing nuts to avoid a slight runout above the roof as I left the little cams in my pack.

When my follower got there, I had her clove into the sling and bounce test. No movement at all!

Opposing nuts held my follower when she bounce tested them

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

These placements bring up two issues worth considering when you place opposed stoppers.

1. As much as is possible, you want to try to angle the stoppers outward so that the naturally resist outward as well as sideward loads. It isn't always possible to manage this but one should try.

2. Don't link the stoppers as in the picture above if at all possible. Instead, clip them both with two carabiners gates opposed. There are two reasons for this recommendation.

a. Linking them as illustrated creates higher loads (in this case on the right stopper) because of the pulley effect.

b. If, in this case, the left stopper fails it can pull through the loop of the other stopper and then the rope isn't clipped to anything. With the other method, you might just get lucky and have the other stopper hold (I actually know of a case in which this happened).

All that said, these placements are relatively close together and using a carabiner as described might result in more outward load then they can take, so the illustrated arrangement could be best. As always, judgement is called for.

The reason for two carabiners with gates opposed is that you have a triaxial loading situation.

ian watson · · Sandia park, NM · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 235

+ where ever this thread went with tri-cams, they are my favorite piece for horizontals. I use nuts in a horizontal if the situation calls for it I will try to explain best I can:

If the rock comes to a taper and is a bit pocketed in the back I will insert nut then move it over to get behind the taper my offset peanuts shine at this.

EDIT:Posted before I read everything Rgold described it better as a keyhole.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Climb for joy wrote: I also notice that this above picture appears to show the sling girth hitched around the left carabiner. I'm guessing this is the "light tension" mentioned under the picture in the following link? climbing.com/skill/nuts-101/
That's not a girth hitch. It's just an extra turn of the sling around the biner. This was the easiest way to prevent the "sling slips through the biner if one piece pops" problem that rgold refers to. We used to do it all the time. But that was before we understood the pulley effect that exists when one piece redirects through the other. (Imagine it in a vertical crack. Huge loads can be created due to the sling-redirected pulley and the unavoidable rope pulley effect).

The sling redirect approach to opposed nuts can be traced WAY back to the origins of clean climbing. See Fig. 7 in Doug Robinson's seminal essay on the subject (the treatise that is often claimed to have ignited the move to removable protection in the US):

climbaz.com/chouinard72/gra…
Greg Pouliot · · Rumney NH · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 90

I love that the 2 obvious gunks climbers don't go straight to "tricams are the best!", but everybody else does. They are obviously awesome so I'm told, I've never actually placed one, but you can certainly place good nuts in horizontals. Gunks climbers would know this best. Also, I feel like it's worth mentioning here that gunks horizontals aren't smooth things in a lot of cases like places out west may be. You can find tons on little knobs and crystals and stubbies inside most every horizontal you find yourself in front of.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

When opposing, use a biner on each nut and clove hitch or two to tie them together, then a third biner to clip the rope to.

Slip knots = pulley = bad

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

The really nice thing about a tricam or a passively rated cam (camalot) is that when you find a horizontal which is flared on the inside (constriction) the piece is both passive and active ...

Its as bomber a placement as you can get

;)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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