Bugaboos gear needs - snow/glacier stuff, ropes, and guidebook

Hi friends,

Planning a Bugs trip. We're going the last week of June into the first week of July. Six to seven nights up there. Our objectives are the moderate classics (like everybody else!), so no boutique hard routes or anything.

Few specific gear questions for you veterans out there:

1. Ropes - Right now we're planning to bring a single, non-dry, 60m rope. Reading route descriptions, I haven't seen any strong warnings about needing two ropes or a 70m rope for descent. Any advice? I'm sure doubles/twins are a better fit but not sure it's in the budget.

2. Crampons - Sources seems to imply these are an essential. We are planning to bring them... any thoughts or recommendations on particular models would be appreciated (we'll both be buying after some serial renting). OR maybe you really think they're not necessary given our target timeframe (last week of June).

3. Guidebook - For the life of me, I cannot get a copy of the Atkinson and Piche guidebook. Anybody know a seller (online or brick'n'mortar) that has it? Alternatively, I would pay a good amount if somebody wants to sell or even lend this to me.

Thanks guys!

Definitely bring doubles. It will get you down anything and allow you to bail faster should a storm come in. This is not a sport crag.

Whether you need crampons depends on a lot of factors. I went in mid-July on a heavy snow year and didn't need them because there was lots of soft snow in the col. It also depends on what routes you do. If you do bring them flexible glacier strap-on crampons are all you need. The ones with the plastic toe pieces will go over regular hiking boots.

Can't help you with the guidebook. I used Randell Green's guidebook.

Thanks Brian, good info.

Second Brian's responses.

Definitely have doubles, or at minimum a tag line.

Sometimes you need crampons, sometimes you don't. If you're staying on the Bugaboo glacier, you can get by without. If you are going to be on the Bugaboo-Snowpatch col (for Pigeon Spire, Kain Route, descending Snowpatch) it's a toss up.

I'll play devil's advocate. If your're climbing routes like WR Pigeon, Kain, Ear's Between, SR Brenta, Kraus McCarthy, etc., you will be fine with a single 60m, though I'm not so sure about the non dry one. Pretty much anything else requires double ropes in order to be able to back off and not leave an entire rack, but very few of the popular routes require double ropes to descend. Sunshine crack does. I'm not sure what else.

Double ropes are needed to rappel the Bugaboo-Snowpatch col if necessary, and this is a very low snow year so I suspect it will turn to shit. Your trip is early enough that you should be fine though.

Having said this, I have always used double ropes in the Bugaboos. They're awesome. And no offence intended but tag lines are stupid.

Any crampons that will strap onto your boots will be fine. Aluminum ones are popular. If you are competent on steep snow then you may be able to get by without.

The guidebook is often available for sale in the hut. Otherwise any climbing shop in Canada seems to have it.

You can buy the Atkinson and Piche guide from the Alpine Club of Canada online store: alpineclubofcanada.ca/produ…

There is a free 62 page preview online at highcol.ca/downloads/previe…

The book is no longer for sale online by the publisher or at MEC, so I suspect that a second edition may be on the way.

Thanks Hans and Mike!

At this point will probably go with aluminum crampons.

No interest in tag-lines... not sure what we'll do about ropes. This is always something I debate with myself. You double/twin fans have any specific recommendations of rope models?

Would you say non-dry is a real problem in terms of rope freezing and so on?

I'm a big fan of Mammut ropes and use the Genesis 8.5mm. They're a little heavy but they are ridiculously durable. They seem to last forever. I might try the Phoenix if these ever wear out.

I'm not sure what would happen with a non-dry rope. I assume it would get really wet and stay wet? Maybe someone else can chime in here.

Hey Zeffe,

Two partners and I are heading to the Bugs during the same time frame (arriving June 27, leaving July 4). Super excited for this trips. Sounds like we are aiming for a bunch of the same climbs. here is a link to some of the same questions ive been asking:

mountainproject.com/v/bugab…

theres some decent gear info in there.

Also, I ordered the guide book from the Alpine Club of Canada (atkinson and piche). Really thorough book.

Hah! Nice Jake, see you soon I guess. You guys staying at Applebee?

And yeah looks like the Canuck club has the book - great news. The free preview PDF looks like the best guidebook I've ever seen..

Anyone have recommendations on a dual-certified double/twin rope that would be good? I have climbed on several and some are more problematic than others in terms of tangles and such but I've never noted models. I don't want to go ultra-skinny. Maybe something in the 7.5-8.5mm range. Prefer Dry as well.

Edit: Didn't notice Hans' reply about the Genesis. I actually had my eye on that and will take a closer look. Thanks.. interested in other opinions of course!

+1 on thew Genesis doubles. Have owned a few pairs over the years. Most durable and least problematic doubles I've owned. They're a bit thicker than average in these days of ultra-skinny everything, but they last forever and inspire confidence.

Thanks Eric and/or Lucie. Yeah I don't want to lose my confidence leading on dental floss... esp for doubles where one rope will be catching the fall. I can see in twin mode, though, people are probably more comfortable with skinnies. Anyway thanks for taking the time to give me another data point.

I see people using doubles in two mode and I wonder why. More drag and higher impact force. You lose all the advantage.

Because they are scared and have no idea how doubles actually function Hans. It is the same principle of clipping direct into their pieces versus extending most of them. Both of these bad habits are the new norm coming out of cities like Boulder, Salt Lake, etc. Folks are learning (whatever they are learning) in gyms, not in the alpine. Ironically in both cases, their unfounded fear is making the system more dangerous, not safer.

How do you guys deal with doubles on, say, a glacier crossing where you deem it appropriate to rope up?

I suppose you could use them as twins for that part and kiwi coil til you get the desire length. Or would it be standard to just use one? Just curious if there are any tips and tricks.

just use one, put the other away...the forces of falling into a crevasse or steep snow slope is not the same as it is on a lead fall...one thin line is more than adequate

Dow Williams wrote:just use one, put the other away...the forces of falling into a crevasse or steep snow slope is not the same as it is on a lead fall...one thin line is more than adequate

Makes sense.... keep the other stowed til you hit the rock. Thanks Dow. Pretty stoked... !

Hans wrote:I see people using doubles in two mode and I wonder why. More drag and higher impact force. You lose all the advantage.

Well there's got to be a reason twins exist, right? Maybe simpler at the belay since feed rates are always equal... and if the route is pretty straight on it takes away some thinking for the leader as he just has to clip both ropes to everything rather than doing a mental geometry problem. Plus a pure twin rope (not half certified) probably accounts for the fall force by having more elasticity in each rope.

But yeah I think half-rope mode has tons of advantages, just trying to think through the idea of twins.

I have a pair of the Genesis' and love everything about them except for the weight. They hadle good and are durable as any rope I've owned.

My buddy has a set of PMI Verglas and they are great! I'm actually looking at getting a set myself. They handle great and are so much lighter. They are twin/double certified so pick your style dependent on route. Obviously they aren't as burley as the Genesis, but they hold up pretty good for a skinny rope.

Zeffe, the main idea of twins is less weight (Elderid makes a 6.9 twin), particularly for hard/remote ice routes that we are post holing or skiing to reach the base of. On steep ice, the routes are vertical for the most part (don't wander), we don't need doubles, we would rather clip both ropes. We also want to get down big ice in a hurry, shorter days, avalanche danger, we have to build each anchor into the waterfall itself. 200' or 230' raps help us get down much quicker (why we prefer two ropes vs one). Any huge alpine route that takes days to approach and might require huge raps off of steep north faces, the same. For hard bushwhacking alpine approaches in Canada or Alaska, bogs, river crossings, etc.....when weight is at its absolute premium I might go with my ice twins in the summer.

But despite what you might hear, many of us consider the Bugaboo approaches to be quite pedestrian if not down right fast and easy on firm snow/ice, zero bushwhacking. Most all the routes in the Bugs wander. You only want doubles, not twins in the Bugs. Most doubles now days do sell as being twin rated. His comment was referencing why, once you get on the rock, treat them as twins vs doubles when double technique is actually much safer. The quick answer is that it feels safer treating them as twins all the time. The same as it feels safer to clip short to the rope and not extend your pieces as you should. It just feels that way, when in reality it is less safe.

Ah, yeah, hard vertical ice seems perfect for twins.

Grabbed a pair of Genesis on sale so I'm stoked. Really wanted doubles last year for the Winds but balked on the purchase.

Dow, was just reading your Summit Post description of Ears Between. Great post... will definitely try that one.