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Making the "pinch method" (belaying with a Grigri) safer?

Original Post
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300

I’m sure most of you are aware of the current lead belay method with the Grigri recommended by Petzl (pictured below):

Petzl recommended belay method

If this is how you belay, then you don’t need to read any further.

However, If you're aware of the Petzl recommended method above, yet you choose to lead belay by pinching the Grigri in your right hand and pressing down on the cam all the time (which I will refer to as the "pinch method" for simplicity), then read on.

The main issue I have with the "pinch method" is that by holding down the cam all the time, the belayer risks overriding the assisted braking action of the Grigri. Now the goal of my post is not trying to persuade people to use the Petzl recommended method (unless you want to be persuaded). I simply want to discuss a small change to the way a belayer holds the Grigri that may make the "pinch method" slightly safer: instead of pinching the Grigri between the thumb and the index finger, try hooking the index finger under the lip of the Grigri and apply constant pressure to push the Grigri away from the harness (this is the key). This creates tension between the Grigri and the belay loop that holds the Grigri in place by the pressure of the index finger alone. The belayer’s thumb, middle finger, ring finger, and little finger are wrapped around the brake strand. This is visually very similar to "giving slack quickly" in the Petzl recommended method, the difference is that the thumb is wrap around the brake strand instead of on the cam, only the index finger is used to hold the Grigri upright. Again, the key here is to apply upward pressure with the index finger to create tension between the Grigri and the belay loop. In this position, belayers can feed slack easily with their left hand, and if they need to feed slack quickly, they only need to move their right thumb a couple of inches to press down on the cam momentarily, before returning to holding the brake strand with four fingers. To brake, simply move the right hand downward along the brake strand as usual. I've only tried this with the old Grigri since it's the only Grigri I have, but I assume it should work with the Grigri2. The picture below shows this modified method of holding the Grigri using only my index finger:

Holding a Grigri upright with only the index finger.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some people are doing this already without knowing it, but my search has found no mention of this modification. If it has been discussed already, I apologize for my puny search ability. The change here is very small, visually it's almost not noticeable. However, the difference in the operation of the Grigri is significant enough that I feel that it should be brought up and be discussed. Before anyone asks, I did write to Petzl about this. Petzl responded with two things they do not like about this method. I'll quote their two cautionary points:

1. "even though you seem to make sure to not override the cam, Continuous contact with the device has the potential to lead to misuse, no matter how attentive you are to your method."

2. "Also, in the case of a fall, it would be preferable to have your hand farther from the device. With your hand this close to where the rope enters, you run a higher risk of having your hand pinched in the device, which could cause complications."

I do agree with both of their points, so personally I still think Petzl recommended method is the safest method. But in the case of someone choose to use the "pinch method" over the Petzl recommended method, I think this modification is worth bringing to their attention. And since this is a topic about using a Grigri on MP, I'm expecting at least 20 pages of lively discussions, friendly name callings, and entertaining thread drifts! Let us begin...

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

no matter what its a good idea to keep the thumb off the cam except when yr feeding ... thats basic common sense

a big problem with the "fast feed" method is that folks will simply park their thumb right on top of the cam ... and then they go off and use it as their only belay method

you might be able to get away with this on a thicker rope, but once you go down to thin slick supple dry ropes, all bets are off ... you are dependent upon your reaction time and overriding the instinct to grab (the device) harder in a fall

with a slick thin rope there is no real excuse IMO not to feed it ATC style unless one is making fast clips ... i have plenty of partners that feed it just fine like that

with a thicker rope a trick is to bring the brake hand along the rope to yr waist ... then bring that hand up with the rope to the "fast feed" position ... and then feed out that loop of slack

this has a more secure grip then just letting the rope slide through the "brake" hand in fast feed ... and it takes away the weight of the rope pile which can affect the feeding ... not to mention the motion automatically sorts the rope out

this is of course not a recommended technique so do it at your own risk

;)

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

People used to wrap their fingers around and grip the cam with four fingers, which meant there was potential to be able to hold the cam open, even in a fall.

The change in method to using the thumb on the cam that I've seen demo'd in Petzl videos from years ago has the tips of the index and middle fingers hooked under the "lip" where the metal is folded over, and the thumb on top of the cam. Pretty much what you have there but with two fingers. Not sure why they'd show it how the picture illustrates it with the fingers under the body of the device.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Wish Petzl would make a Grigri for lefties!

Nick Hitchcock · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 46
Bill Kirby wrote:Wish Petzl would make a Grigri for lefties!
they did make a left handed grigri 1, I used one working at summer camp.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
Bill Kirby wrote:Wish Petzl would make a Grigri for lefties!
Like this one

Left Handed GriGri
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I still like my version of the old way and am sticking with it. Thumb and index finger stay ringed around the brake strand, even if loose and I only use the tips of the two little fingers and palm to squeeze the cam when fast feeding. Two hands on the brake side, hand under hand if I need to take in a bunch of slack quickly, normal ATC style shuffle otherwise.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
M Sprague wrote:I still like my version of the old way and am sticking with it. Thumb and index finger stay ringed around the brake strand, even if loose and I only use the tips of the two little fingers and palm to squeeze the cam when fast feeding. Two hands on the brake side, hand under hand if I need to take in a bunch of slack quickly, normal ATC style shuffle otherwise.
This is what I do too, especially with my old Grigri. I think it's superior to Petzl's method because there is a LOT less rope drag (which often causes it to lock exactly when you don't want it to) because the rope is not forced into an S-shaped path.

With my Grigri 2 and a skinny rope, I can generally use the ATC method to fast feed, if I can see my leader and anticipate the clips. If I need to suddenly feed fast, I can execute the above method in an instant, and then go back to ATC-style. This is because I hold the brake-strand with my thumb away from the Grigri or ATC.

It's important to remember that when the Grigri was first introduced there were a lot of people hitting the ground due to belayers holding their thumbs on the cam. There is a strong reflex (non-volitional) to hold tight to whatever is in your hands during a fall. With a Grigri, this is a bad reflex if you've your thumb on the cam or a grip on the climber's rope.

An advantage of M Sprague's method is that it's quite difficult to hold onto the Grigri (and hold down the cam) during a fall with your hand in the position described. And remember that this was Petzl's original approved method!
Eric LaRoche · · West Swanzey, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25
Bill Kirby wrote:Wish Petzl would make a Grigri for lefties!
I belay left handed with a grigri, that is left hand as brake. Though I am right handed, it feels more natural for me using my dominate hand to pull in slack and payout rope on the climbers side than using it for the brake side). Petzl did put out an "official" left handed belay method. I don't belay that way exactly but it gets the job done. I used the heal of my palm against the cam just about the same place where the thumb is in Petzl's picture. That way I keep complete control on the brake end without removing my thumb from the grasp. Obviously I do have to switch for lowering but that's easy enough to do safely.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
rocknice2 wrote: Like this one
WTH! Haha.. Your picture got me off my ass to look at my Grigri.

Thanks Eric. I'll try it your way
Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18,818

If you check the Petzl website or Google belaying with a GriGri there's a YouTube video that addresses the two techniques for belaying with the GriGri. One "old" and one "new." There are also videos demonstrating the techniques for belaying with the GriGri.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
bearbreeder wrote:no matter what its a good idea to keep the thumb off the cam except when yr feeding ... thats basic common sense a big problem with the "fast feed" method is that folks will simply park their thumb right on top of the cam ... and then they go off and use it as their only belay method
People belaying only in the "quick feed" position is not an inherent problem of the "quick feed" position, i.e., the "quick feed" position does not cause the belayer to use it at all times. In an ideal world, we all use common sense and onsight 5.15s. But in reality, there are people who belay with their thumb on the cam. Due to our discomfort with what’s unfamiliar, getting people to change to a drastically different method is difficult, especially if they’ve been using it for awhile. A smaller change is much easier to accept and adopt by people who are used to a particular method, but in this case the small change is the difference between holding down the cam and not touching the cam at all.

bearbreeder wrote:you might be able to get away with this on a thicker rope, but once you go down to thin slick supple dry ropes, all bets are off ... you are dependent upon your reaction time and overriding the instinct to grab (the device) harder in a fall with a slick thin rope there is no real excuse IMO not to feed it ATC style unless one is making fast clips ... i have plenty of partners that feed it just fine like that
In the modified grip, you're not grabbing the device at all, the only thing you’re grabbing is the brake strand. Any instinct to clench hard in a fall will result in the belayer clench down on the brake strand, not the device. With a thin slick rope, you can pay out slack easily enough in the modified grip so you don’t even need to press down on the cam at all.

bearbreeder wrote:with a thicker rope a trick is to bring the brake hand along the rope to yr waist ... then bring that hand up with the rope to the "fast feed" position ... and then feed out that loop of slack this has a more secure grip then just letting the rope slide through the "brake" hand in fast feed ... and it takes away the weight of the rope pile which can affect the feeding ... not to mention the motion automatically sorts the rope out this is of course not a recommended technique so do it at your own risk
I’ve belayed with the Grigri long enough to have tried many different things, including what you’ve described. My experience with it is that it works about as well as the "ATC method" for slow feeding, but not so well when your climber is really yanking up the slack. Assuming you’re not built like an orangutan, the most slack you can get between the brake hand and the Grigri is about 2-3 feet. If you need to pump out more than 2-3 feet of slack as quickly as you can, you either have to relax your brake hand and let the rope slide through (which defeats the whole argument of a more secure grip), or you have to reset your brake hand to the waist and repeat the process again (which is pretty slow). For desperate clips, the “quick feed” position is still much smoother.
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Will S wrote:The change in method to using the thumb on the cam that I've seen demo'd in Petzl videos from years ago has the tips of the index and middle fingers hooked under the "lip" where the metal is folded over, and the thumb on top of the cam. Pretty much what you have there but with two fingers. Not sure why they'd show it how the picture illustrates it with the fingers under the body of the device.
No you're right, the index finger (minus the middle finger) under the lip of the Grigri is still what Petzl recommends. The first picture I have is a little hard to see, but it does show only the index finger under the lip. If you go to this webpage, which is where I stole that first diagram, Petzl have a more detailed illustration:

petzl.com/en/Sport/Belaying…
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
aikibujin wrote: People belaying only in the "quick feed" position is not an inherent problem of the "quick feed" position, i.e., the "quick feed" position does not cause the belayer to use it at all times. In an ideal world, we all use common sense and onsight 5.15s. But in reality, there are people who belay with their thumb on the cam. Due to our discomfort with what’s unfamiliar, getting people to change to a drastically different method is difficult, especially if they’ve been using it for awhile. A smaller change is much easier to accept and adopt by people who are used to a particular method, but in this case the small change is the difference between holding down the cam and not touching the cam at all. In the modified grip, you're not grabbing the device at all, the only thing you’re grabbing is the brake strand. Any instinct to clench hard in a fall will result in the belayer clench down on the brake strand, not the device. With a thin slick rope, you can pay out slack easily enough in the modified grip so you don’t even need to press down on the cam at all. I’ve belayed with the Grigri long enough to have tried many different things, including what you’ve described. My experience with it is that it works about as well as the "ATC method" for slow feeding, but not so well when your climber is really yanking up the slack. Assuming you’re not built like an orangutan, the most slack you can get between the brake hand and the Grigri is about 2-3 feet. If you need to pump out more than 2-3 feet of slack as quickly as you can, you either have to relax your brake hand and let the rope slide through (which defeats the whole argument of a more secure grip), or you have to reset your brake hand to the waist and repeat the process again (which is pretty slow). For desperate clips, the “quick feed” position is still much smoother.
no i have been "partially dropped" (an extra 30+ feet) almost to the deck by someone who claimed the same ...

with the index on the lip and thumb on the cam, its not hard too clench the index and thumb tightly enough that the cam will not activate

remember that you dont need much force to keep it depressed enough so that the rope just zips right through ... especially skinny slick ropes

one thing that is very important with the "fast feed" is that the hand needs to come fully off the device and grasp the rope solidly in a fall ... you will see some folks try to "brake" while gripping the grigri in the fast feed position ... unless the hand comes onto the brake strand fully, the last 3 fingers gripping the strand wont do much at all

as to the method i stated ... this may work on THICKER, FUZZIER ropes, which the ATC method simply doesnt with well ... which is why many folks constantly belay with the "fast feed" method ... to overcome the limitation of the grigri (indeed most assisted locking devices) on thick ropes once they seem a decent amout of use (fuzzyness, stiffness)

to put it simply theres a reason why folks still get dropped on grigris

;)
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Bill Kirby wrote:Wish Petzl would make a Grigri for lefties!
I'm a leftie! I guess with practice, you can teach old lefties new tricks. Also, I'm willing to part with my special editiion leftie Grigri (see below) for the right price...

rocknice2 wrote: Like this one
Hey!! That's the super rare limited production collector's edition leftie Grigri I've been hiding in my gear closet. How did you get a picture of it?!
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
M Sprague wrote:I still like my version of the old way and am sticking with it. Thumb and index finger stay ringed around the brake strand, even if loose and I only use the tips of the two little fingers and palm to squeeze the cam when fast feeding. Two hands on the brake side, hand under hand if I need to take in a bunch of slack quickly, normal ATC style shuffle otherwise.
I started using the Grigri more than ten years ago, and this was exactly the "old method" (and Petzl recommended method at the time) I started belaying with. I give the most silky smooth feed with this "old method" 100% of the time. However, to be honest I've always thought the thumb and index finger around the brake strand is just for show only. In theory (as I've never done it in real life) if I clench down hard enough with my pinkie and my palm to override the cam, I don't think the thumb and index finger ringed around the brake strand will offer much braking power. Training my left hand to go to the brake strand in catching a fall certainly helps, but the new method recommended by Petzl seem to offer more control on the brake strand with both hands, which is why I switched to the new method.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
aikibujin wrote: I'm a leftie! I guess with practice, you can teach old lefties new tricks. Also, I'm willing to part with my special editiion leftie Grigri (see below) for the right price... Hey!! That's the super rare limited production collector's edition leftie Grigri I've been hiding in my gear closet. How did you get a picture of it?!
Thanks for the offer A! I don't usually have a problem feeding rope to my leader using a Grigri 1. I can usually find a good angle to feed the brake strand into a Grigri plus taking a step forward gets my leader the slack he/she needs to clip the draw. It sucks to be so attentive but it helps me when I constantly watch the leader to anticipate when extra slack is needed. Now When my old Grigri craps out I'm not buying the 2! Grigri 2 jams too much.

I'm thinking of the new Camp Mantik belay device.
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
bearbreeder wrote: no i have been "partially dropped" (an extra 30+ feet) almost to the deck by someone who claimed the same ... with the index on the lip and thumb on the cam, its not hard too clench the index and thumb tightly enough that the cam will not activate
We are not arguing on the same level. My claim is with the modified grip, NOT with the "quick feed" grip. Don't be balding one sentence of mine without balding the one prior to it just to make your case. Here's what I actually said: "In the modified grip, you're not grabbing the device at all, the only thing you’re grabbing is the brake strand. Any instinct to clench hard in a fall will result in the belayer clench down on the brake strand, not the device."

The modified grip has the thumb off the cam precisely to avoid people clenching down on the it. Look at my picture closely, pay special attention to where my thumb is resting (again not on the cam), then come back and tell me that when catching a fall with this modified grip the belayer will clamp down on the cam instinctively.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
aikibujin wrote: We are not arguing on the same level. My claim is with the modified grip, NOT with the "quick feed" grip. Don't be balding one sentence of mine without balding the one prior to it just to make your case. Here's what I actually said: "In the modified grip, you're not grabbing the device at all, the only thing you’re grabbing is the brake strand. Any instinct to clench hard in a fall will result in the belayer clench down on the brake strand, not the device." The modified grip has the thumb off the cam precisely to avoid people clenching down on the it. Look at my picture closely, pay special attention to where my thumb is resting (again not on the cam), then come back and tell me that when catching a fall with this modified grip the belayer will clamp down on the cam instinctively.
the point is that the you still have the thumb on the cam to feed out slack even with yr "modified" grip

and if one should fall while yr belayer is feeding you slack for whatever reason, which is what happened to yours truly, then it doesnt matter if yr using the "recommended fast feed" or "modified" grip ... if one instinctively grips the device at that poin

as anyone who has listened to my MP rambles about grigri and smart usage knows ... im a big proponent of keeping the device in a position where the braking is not defeated whenever possible

however pointing out that one can (and folks have) grip the device instinctively when feeding and thus defeated the braking is "arguing" i guess

to be blunt ... some folks have used yr "modified" method for many years, hell ive used it many a times myself, theres nothing new about it ... and the points that petzl brings up as to why not to use it are all valid

as i said in my first post ... keeping the thumb off the cam whenever possible is basic common sense ... and nothing special

;)
Paul Hutton · · Nephi, UT · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740

My finger hooks under the curved metal, rope is held in the brake hand with the remaining three fingers at all times, thumb stretches around the belay loop side of the device to hold the cam open while feeding rope. I'm constantly watching my climber and checking the coil of rope to make sure I don't have any tangles or bad kinks coming my way, and my brake hand comes off the device to yank a short length off the top of the rope coil so it's ready to feed cleanly.

Too often, I've been belayed by someone I hardly know, and get short roped when I pull the rope to clip because they're not holding the cam open when feeding.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
bearbreeder wrote: the point is that the you still have the thumb on the cam to feed out slack even with yr "modified" grip and if one should fall while yr belayer is feeding you slack for whatever reason, which is what happened to yours truly, then it doesnt matter if yr using the "recommended fast feed" or "modified" grip ... if one instinctively grips the device at that poin as anyone who has listened to my MP rambles about grigri and smart usage knows ... im a big proponent of keeping the device in a position where the braking is not defeated whenever possible however pointing out that one can (and folks have) grip the device instinctively when feeding and thus defeated the braking is "arguing" i guess
Yep, it sure seems like you're arguing for argument's sake when you're pointing out something I've already said. To save you some time looking, from the very top of the current page: "The main issue I have with the 'pinch method' is that by holding down the cam all the time, the belayer risks overriding the assisted braking action of the Grigri." The danger of clenching the cam has been discussed many times on MP and elsewhere, I simply don't feel like we need to rehash it again here.

bearbreeder wrote:to be blunt ... some folks have used yr "modified" method for many years, hell ive used it many a times myself, theres nothing new about it ... and the points that petzl brings up as to why not to use it are all valid as i said in my first post ... keeping the thumb off the cam whenever possible is basic common sense ... and nothing special ;)
I never claimed this is some new, ground breaking, special belay technique I've discovered. Like I said "I wouldn't be surprised if some people are doing this already without knowing it", but I haven't found anything written about it. Point me to some discussion on this method (maybe by you?) will be a sure fire way to shut me up. In the meantime, to correct one statement you made earlier, you can in fact feed out slack in the modified grip without putting the thumb on the cam. Again, that was the whole point to this modification: to put the Grigri in a position to feed out slack without pressing down on the cam all of the time. Maybe somehow I didn't express my points clearly in the first post, so let me summarize it for you as succinctly as I can: I'm not recommending this for everyone. Only for the people who currently belay while holding the Grigri the whole time, I suggest this as a safer way to hold the Grigri and pay out slack, without having to depress the cam all the time. Thanks for reading, drift on!
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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