Cussing at the crag

This actually has nothing to do with climbing ethics, and everything to do with social etiquette. Not swearing around kids is a pretty basic example of the latter. Now, etiquette is a complex thing and certainly changes depending on the situation and atmosphere, but some things are pretty standard across the board, this being one of them. Of course there are people who just don't view etiquette as especially important, and climbers who don't think it applies to climbing. Those people are unlikely to be convinced. For the rest of us, though, a polite reminder can go a long way. Disclaimer: I have no kids, and DEFINITELY guilty of a potty mouth on occasion.

Simple: All that is needed is common curtesy and respect for those around you, whether they are young, old, or your peers, no matter the environment, be it at the crag or out and about. Respect goes a long ways.

Mea culpa. A few years ago I was leading the sandy, exfoliating, 5.8 offwidth pitch on Otto's Route with a friend and his young son. Said son now knows every swear word in my vocabulary in a multitude of inventive combinations. Doesn't seem to have harmed him much in the long run but I was a bit embarrassed at the horrified look on his face.

I generally try to be courteous if there's kids around. I'm not always perfect, and I feel bad for a brief instant, but then I remember that I don't really think swearing is something to be protected from anyway and that I have better things to worry about. I don't think swearing is inherently bad but for some reason kids remind me that it's not the most intelligent way to speak. And I don't even like kids very much.

My buddy has absolutely no filter at the gym, sometimes I wanna smack him because it sounds stupid anyway, "holy FUCK dude did you like that FUCKING dyno on that route" with a 6 year old behind you is pretty classless.

They are words. Simple words. Especially if they're not pointed directly at anyone, who the fuck cares? I spent too many god damn years in the Army to worry about what I say about anything around anybody, age irregardless. Again, words words words, they're not bullets, or Satan help us, beta.

We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene! -Colonel Kurtz

I'm not a lady Locker. Maybe I'll try to find the number to rock n resole for that slight.

Alexey Dynkin wrote:This actually has nothing to do with climbing ethics, and everything to do with social etiquette. Not swearing around kids is a pretty basic example of the latter. Now, etiquette is a complex thing and certainly changes depending on the situation and atmosphere, but some things are pretty standard across the board, this being one of them. Of course there are people who just don't view etiquette as especially important, and climbers who don't think it applies to climbing. Those people are unlikely to be convinced. For the rest of us, though, a polite reminder can go a long way. Disclaimer: I have no kids, and DEFINITELY guilty of a potty mouth on occasion.

I agree with you there, it is all about social etiquitte. And social etiquitte supports the idea that you should be able to expect to take your child to a bank, restaurant, dentist office or church without hearing cussing every minute or more. But don't take your kid to a bar, pool hall, casino or climbing crag and expect everyone to instantly eliminate all foul language from their vocabulary because your child is there. Again, this was your choice, not theirs, to have your kid there.
If you are taking your children climbing then it is likely you've spend a lot of time in these climbing areas and around climbers. You are fully aware of the "social etiquitte" that exist within this world. And you subject your kids to this world, not me.

COMtnWoman wrote: I agree with you there, it is all about social etiquitte. And social etiquitte supports the idea that you should be able to expect to take your child to a bank, restaurant, dentist office or church without hearing cussing every minute or more. But don't take your kid to a bar, pool hall, casino or climbing crag and expect everyone to instantly eliminate all foul language from their vocabulary because your child is there. Again, this was your choice, not theirs, to have your kid there. If you are taking your children climbing then it is likely you've spend a lot of time in these climbing areas and around climbers. You are fully aware of the "social etiquitte" that exist within this world. And you subject your kids to this world, not me.

As mentioned upthread, it's about common courtesy. Is it really that hard to lay off the F bombs for a while when there are young kids around?

Nobody's saying it should be not allowed, just that it's kind of obnoxious. I certainly don't claim to never do it, but it slightly lowers the quality of my day when I hear people cursing loudly every time they fall off. Not a big deal, just maybe a thing to consider not doing quite so frequently/loudly because some people don't like it.

COMtnWoman wrote: I agree with you there, it is all about social etiquitte. And social etiquitte supports the idea that you should be able to expect to take your child to a bank, restaurant, dentist office or church without hearing cussing every minute or more. But don't take your kid to a bar, pool hall, casino or climbing crag and expect everyone to instantly eliminate all foul language from their vocabulary because your child is there. Again, this was your choice, not theirs, to have your kid there. If you are taking your children climbing then it is likely you've spend a lot of time in these climbing areas and around climbers. You are fully aware of the "social etiquitte" that exist within this world. And you subject your kids to this world, not me.

I disagree. Casinos, bars, and pool halls are all explicitly adult-only venues; in fact, people under 21 are not allowed by law! A climbing crag, or gym, on the other hand, has no such restrictions. People of any age, gender, background or whatever are welcome. It's a classic "mixed-use area" in that regard, and as such, striking a balance between freedom and some sense of awareness of those around you goes a long way to making everyone's experience enjoyable. It's the same thing as with smoking, playing loud music, or any other of those countless activities that have been argued over ad nauseum on these forums. At what point does the "freedom" of one starts to detract from the "freedom" of the next person to have an enjoyable experience? Surely some sort of balance can be struck...and, honestly, it usually is, in my experience at least.

Kedron Silsbee wrote:Nobody's saying it should be not allowed, just that it's kind of obnoxious. I certainly don't claim to never do it, but it slightly lowers the quality of my day when I hear people cursing loudly every time they fall off. Not a big deal, just maybe a thing to consider not doing quite so frequently/loudly because some people don't like it.

Exactly. I don't understand why people are even arguing about this. Yes, most of us do it from time to time, but why not just admit that it's not a great habit?

For totally obnoxious (& foul-mouthed) climbers try this:
"Hey man are you ok? It sounds like you're really upset, and my kid can't figure out why you're so mad at his warm-up route."

climbing friend,

no matter how sensibly or righteously you argue for the following of the social etiquette and against cursing in front of children, I find I simply may not be able to control myself during a difficult, bold, yet enjoyable flash.

Sometimes I scream only scream of wild banshee at the crux, but other times I may do the dropping of the vigorous and sustained f bombs, especially if I may not complete my flash.

Why, I would be projecting a boulder problem this weekend passing, and I failed on one move a few times in a row which I had done previously. I scream, "***** f*cking ***********."I like to not believe I would be doing this were small children prancing about, or even the other peoples, but however I tell to you I am simply unable to control myself at all times due to my deep love of the flash, especially if I have not had the proper nutritions of excellent cheesesteak and fishheads before climbing session.

If you like to make me have the lovings for your children over the great satisfaction of the flash, then I say I will eat your children, and their tender, non-sinewy arm-flesh.

COMtnWoman wrote: I agree with you there, it is all about social etiquitte. And social etiquitte supports the idea that you should be able to expect to take your child to a bank, restaurant, dentist office or church without hearing cussing every minute or more. But don't take your kid to a bar, pool hall, casino or climbing crag and expect everyone to instantly eliminate all foul language from their vocabulary because your child is there. Again, this was your choice, not theirs, to have your kid there. If you are taking your children climbing then it is likely you've spend a lot of time in these climbing areas and around climbers. You are fully aware of the "social etiquitte" that exist within this world. And you subject your kids to this world, not me.

What the fuck? Are you fucking serious? You're lumping a climbing crag in with a bar, pool hall, or casino? LOL give me a fucking break. Are you really that selfish about your crag that you can't put a clamp on the egregious cussing when there's kids there? And don't give me this straight bull shit about the parents being the ones responsible for what their kids hear. Shut the fuck up with that bullshit. That is not how your first amendment rights work first of all and second of all that's just plain selfish to propose such a thing. Your first amendment rights end at the tip of your nose. Don't try to use that to back up your selfish bullshit. If a parent wants to show their kids something OUT IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS they have every right to do so.

Jesus christ some fucking people.

Alexey Dynkin wrote: I disagree. Casinos, bars, and pool halls are all explicitly adult-only venues; in fact, people under 21 are not allowed by law! A climbing crag, or gym, on the other hand, has no such restrictions. People of any age, gender, background or whatever are welcome. It's a classic "mixed-use area" in that regard, and as such, striking a balance between freedom and some sense of awareness of those around you goes a long way to making everyone's experience enjoyable. It's the same thing as with smoking, playing loud music, or any other of those countless activities that have been argued over ad nauseum on these forums. At what point does the "freedom" of one starts to detract from the "freedom" of the next person to have an enjoyable experience? Surely some sort of balance can be struck...and, honestly, it usually is, in my experience at least.

Thank you for making my point Alexey! As you stated "People of any age, gender, background or whatever are welcome."... including foul mouthed climbers.
You also stated "At what point does the "freedom" of one starts to detract from the "freedom" of the next person to have an enjoyable experience?" I don't agree with the rare but occasional unruly, obnoxious kids that are present at a climbing area. But I would NEVER say anything about their behavior because I have the "freedom" to move to a different wall or crag if I don't like the atmosphere created by their presence. All I'm saying is that parents have that very same "freedom" if they don't like my occasional F bombs around their kids.

COMtnWoman wrote:I don't agree with the rare but occasional unruly, obnoxious kids that are present at a climbing area. But I would NEVER say anything about their behavior because I have the "freedom" to move to a different wall or crag if I don't like the atmosphere created by their presence. All I'm saying is that parents have that very same "freedom" if they don't like my occasional F bombs around their kids.

These are two separate concepts. Your willingness and flexibility to get up and leave if you don't like the atmosphere created by a bunch of obnoxious people does not make those people any less obnoxious. And all I'm saying is, dropping F bombs left and right in front of kids is obnoxious. Completely regardless of the parents' responsibility in the situation. If you disagree with THAT then, well, I really don't know what else to say, except that there's probably no point in discussing this any more.

I am in the I try to watch my mouth category, there may be a slip here and there but honestly a kid 10 years old is probably already cussing in this day and age who are you trying to protect? With shows like keeping up with the kardashians (if I misspelled it good) Or jersey trash I think I would take the cussing over 95% of the garbage they are exposed to alone on TV.

Honestly, I'd prefer my kids to be around and become foul mouthed climber heathens than people who pray or make jesus/god references/sayings. Fuck them.

Maybe we could institute some minimum YDS grade for swearing, say 10a or so? It could be like 10pm on Cable TV back in the day. Kids who climb hard enough can swear all they fucking want!

Tim Lutz wrote:Albers must be like a super-cool dad!

Nope. Not a dad. In actuality, I'm a totally foul mouthed person who just happens to have enough sense to know when to try and watch my rotten mouth around kids.

COMtnWoman wrote: Thank you for making my point Alexey! As you stated "People of any age, gender, background or whatever are welcome." You also stated "At what point does the "freedom" of one starts to detract from the "freedom" of the next person to have an enjoyable experience?" I don't agree with the rare but occasional unruly, obnoxious kids that are present at a climbing area. But I would NEVER say anything about their behavior because I have the "freedom" to move to a different wall or crag if I don't like the atmosphere created by their presence. All I'm saying is that parents have that very same "freedom" if they don't like my occasional F bombs around their kids.

Jebus. Pfft. That is the sound of the point going over your head. Guess what? The parent who lets their shitty little kid run wild is also being a selfish douche-nozzle....just like the d-bag who screams "fuckity fuck fuck fuck" ever time he falls off his proj' when a 5 year old is standing right there. All people are asking is that you use a little bit of judgement and consideration for those around you. I know its hard for the narcissistic "freedom to shit all over everything, because, like, I wanted to" crowd, but grow up!! Nobody said you can't swear at the crag. Shit, I swear god damn constantly....while climbing. But when a sweet little 8 year old girl is standing 10 feet away, I use judgement (wow, right?) and either lower my sailor mouth to a low roar or just curb it for the ten minutes that she is next to me. Pretty fucking hard knock life I've constructed for myself, huh?

As Alexey and WilsonDrums pointed out, its not about climbing ethics and its not that fucking hard. Just show some courtesy and respect if you can. Do I fuck up and drop a bucket of f-bombs in front of a kid sometimes by accident? Yup. Do I think words are inherently bad? Nope. Will I care if my kid swears (using good judgement mind you)? Nope. But I will also continue to try and be considerate of those around me, which includes parents with young kids. God damn, I can't believe this concept needs to be spelled out for people. For fucks sake.