How to become a guide

I'm going with a 7.5

It's really pretty good.

Nick Miranda wrote:Good info on illegal guiding and getting your certifications

Start off by guiding under a false identity to avoid liability.
Later, you can forge some guiding credentials.

Bunch of whiners on this thread.
So much for the great AMERICAN free market.

God only knows how we managed to climb before guides. Lucky to have survived for sure. Guides and their organizations are a good indicator of how ridiculous climbing has become.

Um, Whymper was guided. How old are you healyje?

Tim Lutz wrote:. "Guides and their organizations are a good indicator of how ridiculous climbing has become" Why? You would rather read more noob accident reports?

I don't want more noobs breaking their backs because they were too arrogant to learn how to tie a figure 8. I want people to respect the true danger of the sport, and understand that climbing is not like riding a fucking greyhound bus. At some point they must take some basic responsibility for their own safety, and if they are unwilling or incapable of that, then they should go back to hiking.

healyje wrote:. "Guides and their organizations are a good indicator of how ridiculous climbing has become"

Tim Lutz wrote: Why? You would rather read more noob accident reports?

If you think anything about the existence of guides and guide organizations do anything whatsoever to lower the incident of accidents you've been drinking the koolaid.

There are points both ways:

Guides can be used to lessen the learning curve and make it less dangerous, provided you actually do ALL the footwork and make the most of your learning experiences.

A lack of guides keeps the sport more exclusive to more serious people who really sincerely enjoy the inherently dangerous and dynamic sport of climbing.

Someday there will be a compromise we're happy with, but probably not anytime soon

Good God!!!! This thread takes the cake. And that's one big cake.

Tim Lutz wrote:The koolaid that says that leaning something from a qualified instructor in an organized course is better than taking the latest How To Rock Climb tip from climbing mag to the crag and looking at it while threading your ATC and setting up toprope anchors?

A week, month or year later, these two are essentially equivalent and about as useful as one another.

Healyje wrote:God only knows how we managed to climb before guides. Lucky to have survived for sure. Guides and their organizations are a good indicator of how ridiculous climbing has become.

One day, 3 generations from now...

"but granddad, how did the guides learn to climb?"

"no one knows little Sally. some say a bunch of hippies living in vans just went and did things without any Proper Instruction, but we all know how silly that sounds today!"

Healyje wrote:God only knows how we managed to climb before guides. Lucky to have survived for sure. Guides and their organizations are a good indicator of how ridiculous climbing has become.

Yea I disagree... It's like someone arguing "only God knows how we managed the sick before Medical Doctors existed."

It's not about "you can only learn how to climb from a guide." The issue is that IF someone wants to hire a guide there needs to be some sort of way for that person, who has no knowledge of rockclimbing and therefore has no way of knowing which guide is safe or knowledgeable, to choose a guide.

We get it people, you're too cool for guides.

Jan Tarculas wrote: Yea I disagree... It's like someone arguing "only God knows how we managed the sick before Medical Doctors existed."

It bears some similarity, but not much.

Climbing hasn't changed that substantially in the past 100 years. The new technology hasn't been groundbreaking. There are cams, fancy shoes, better materials etc., but the fundamentals are the same; climb some rocks.

The same is not true about managing the sick. In general, we try not to just let sick people die and we don't send the elderly out to the woods as a way to take a burden off society. Nowadays we capitalize on their suffering. This is a huge fundamental change. It birthed the profession "medical doctor."

There was no analogous event in climbing that created a need for guides.

Who Dat wrote: Climbing hasn't changed that substantially in the past 100 years.

Even though I'm a new school climber compared to most I would disagree. Reading stories of climbers back in the "golden age" or about "old school climbers" have definitely changed to the type of climbers we have now. There has been a huge influx of new climbers because of all the gyms and the popularity it has gained through media. Guides provide services for these new climbers, such as groups of kids and families wanting to have a safe and fun environment to climb rocks. Guides also provide a safe partner for traveling climbers that don't want to climb with someone random that claims they know what they are doing.

Jan Tarculas wrote:Guides provide services for these new climbers, such as groups of kids and families wanting to have a safe and fun environment to climb rocks.

I think you hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what people are reacting to. The idea that the rocks can be made safe by paying someone to take you up stuff that you aren't capable of managing on your own skill.

A lot of the appeal of what you call "old school" climbing is in the self-reliance, risk assessment, and learning curve that goes with it. The rocks AREN'T safe. If you wanted to do a challenging route you had to put in the time learning how to do it yourself, by getting experience on easier stuff and then you had to make a decision to take the risk of climbing it and commit to it and rely on your skill and experience to get through it. To me, that is the absolute core of climbing and what attracts me to it.

There's another thread about a climber who broke his ankle highballing in JTree and suggested moving the boulders and clearing landing zones because it "Wasnt fair" that some routes got safe landings. it's the same core set of values that's wrong there. Asses the risk. Develop your skill. Decide to climb.

"Why? You would rather read more noob accident reports?"

Not to sound insane, but yes, I actually would. Accident reports serve as a good reference. The OP seems a little misguided, with the pun fully intended. You go Brohan!!!

^^^^ Terrible joke.

Climb-it wrote:^^^^ Terrible joke.

Yea that was pretty bad. Some here have lost love ones to these accident reports.

Who Dat wrote:The new technology hasn't been groundbreaking.

Quite incorrect.
Sticky rubber enabled much more difficult routes and caused quite a controversy. Some climbers were adamant that any climb done with sticky rubber - Fires at the time - should be downgraded by a full number grade.

Cams - specifically Ray Jardine's Friends - were widely criticized for making protection too easy. There were serious suggestions that any new climb where Friends were used should automatically get an A0 rating.

Nylon ropes allowed leaders to actually take falls that didn't risk killing the entire team.

The RURP enabled things like The Shield to be climbed without resorting to bolt or rivet ladders.

There are numerous other examples of groundbreaking new technology that drastically altered what was possible.

SteveMarshall wrote: The idea that the rocks can be made safe by paying someone to take you up stuff that you aren't capable of managing on your own skill. ..... The rocks AREN'T safe.

I mean honestly as much as the old guard loves to repeats this mantra, it's not entirely true. With a well trained guide or even just a friend who climbs you can go enjoy a day on the rocks and get a taste of this "rock climbing" stuff that you see Tommy Caldwell doing on the news with a pretty low level of risk. Honestly I think that's awesome. If they happen to catch the bug (like I did when I first climbed outdoors, as did many people on this forum I'd guess) then you can start the process of developing a personal mastery of climbing. They can work towards managing personal risk and decide on what level of personal risk they're comfortable with. If that means toproping local boulders or clipping bolts every 6' in Muir Valley or if it's high commitment alpine routes doesn't really matter. I think it's completely reasonable to think that "non-climbers" should be able to get a "safe" taste of what rock climbing is all about by hiring a guide to set up some topropes in J-Tree.