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RESOLVED: Dangerous Loose Rock Removal Boulder Canyon

Original Post
David Tennant · · Denver, CO · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 2,036

Today I was climbing at The Boulderado on Ho Hum and I encountered almost pulling off a 4 ft by 1 ft by 1 ft boulder, which would not only take out anything in belay area below, but would likely continue down into the road, even possibly make it to the water.

Others have been experiencing this as well, as I saw from the comments on Ho Hums MP page, and I wanted to get feedback or help from anyone who frequents Boulder Canyon to see if there's a safe way to remove this block. There's a picture of the exact location in the comments.

Basically, I view this as an incredibly high emergency as this is a frequent beginner route and I know a new leader could easily accidently pull it off. I'd love to see if some people could get together and come up with a way to lower this down safely, hopefully soon before more nice weather continues and more people are going outside to climb.

Even if you aren't able to help, any suggestions or similar experience could help. After almost pulling it off myself, onto my fiance, it scared me shittless that someone will soon find that potential tragedy as a reality.

Thanks,

Edit: The situation has been resolved, CDOT is removing the block today, June 5th as per Tony B:

1) After all was said and done and calculations made, along with a discussion between one of our board members who has a relationship with CDOT, CDOT is sending up a rock scaling and evaluation team and will be addressing this rock.
We don't have a date from them on action from the scaling crew.
We in the group who looked at the situation directly don't believe that there is an immediate threat posed by the situation, so there should be time for them to do this within their schedules.

Special thanks for CDOT for listening and being willing to evaluate and remove the rock at the request of the climbers.

-Tony (On behalf of the BCC)

2) PSA: THE BOULDERADO CLOSED FRIDAY (and Hwy 119)
The Boulderado climbing area will be closed by CDOT from 6:00 am until noon on Friday, June 5, for removal of a loose block, and the highway will be closed during some of that time. Thanks to CDOT for taking care of the dangerous block!

flynn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2002 · Points: 25

Yikes. Boy, I don't hear an up side here.

I don't have any experience with removal of anything this big or in so unfortunate a location. Talk to Mike McHugh in Eldorado. He's built so many trails, he should be a good resource for you.

And don't touch that damn thing until/unless you know what you're doing.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

I can't even picture where there would be loose rock there, so it must be a doozy. Mark it with an X. Maybe a call into CDOT?

With the angle of that crag i could see it going fast and far.

Mike McHugh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 420

Splitting and lowering has worked pretty well in Eldo and the elephant buttresses. I haven't seen it, but the kickers are going to be 1) the road and 2) the landowners (osmp, usfs, cdot, bcos, private, ?, ...)

I'll send a message to tony b and roger from BCC - they've got the best understanding of the area. Personally I think it's wise to proceed very carefully just because it could go so wrong. Amped to help out if I can.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Mike McHugh wrote:Splitting and lowering has worked pretty well in Eldo and the elephant buttresses. I haven't seen it, but the kickers are going to be 1) the road and 2) the landowners (osmp, usfs, cdot, bcos, private, ?, ...) I'll send a message to tony b and roger from BCC - they've got the best understanding of the area. Personally I think it's wise to proceed very carefully just because it could go so wrong. Amped to help out if I can.
Honestly I think if you try to remove it yourself you will be looking for trouble...fines, trip to jail, whatever. This is right over the road.

If the block is that big they need to stop traffic to either trundle or lower it somehow. Once that puppy comes off it's all a guess where it's gonna go.
Mike Grainger · · Waterloo, ON Canada · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 286

@C Jefferson
I love the smell of sanctimony in the morning! Of course, when this lets go and someone gets killed, it will be a well deserved death, as the sacred tenets of "real climbers" were not followed.

On the other hand, if your comment really was intended to be helpful rather than merely dismissive, I apologize for the tone of my first reaction.

Mike McHugh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 420
Scott McMahon wrote: Honestly I think if you try to remove it yourself you will be looking for trouble...fines, trip to jail, whatever. This is right over the road. If the block is that big they need to stop traffic to either trundle or lower it somehow. Once that puppy comes off it's all a guess where it's gonna go.
Scott - maybe I did a bad job of expressing myself (happens a lot). You're absolutely right, and we agree. If the all the proper parties are involved (CDOT/landowner/BCC/...) I'd be happy to help. I think (hope) I've got a pretty solid rep for doing this work professionally and safely.
Mike Grainger · · Waterloo, ON Canada · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 286

So your preferred option is to leave the obviously dangerous block in place, then decry the "poor judgement" of anyone involved in any future accident? I am having difficulty discerning helpfulness in this approach.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

OK, had a look at the block with someone else.
The block (~32” x 16” x 11” ~ave dimensions), if trundled, will be ~500-650lbs on the road, Plus whatever goes with it on the way down. Straight out trundle is not an option, as it was figured previously.
The block is loose from the right and pinned above (levered into at the top) by a small surface area of the loose rock that will wear away, and visibly is doing so. This thing probably won't come down in the immediate future, but it probably will come down in the foreseeable future (months/years?)
The rock behind it is many times larger (several thousands of pounds) and is semi-attached. If this came loose and fell, this would be a very, very big deal. It would take tools or a 'dozer to get it out of the road if it went. That seems unlikely, as that part looks solid, but then again, it might not be.

We're discussing possibilities/options. Please PM me off list if you have looked at this thing in person and have concrete and specific suggestions you would like to add into the mix for consideration if you have the time and energy to help carry them out (which means showing up and helping if we need help).

Thanks for calling this to attention.

Eddie F · · Edwards, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 25

I understand that this is a mostly trad/TR area, but could you bolt it into the rock somehow? I've seen this done in a couple of places which is the only reason I am bring it up. It is definitely not pretty or good for the rock in a sense, but it could be effective.

Andrew Whitmore · · Montana · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 625

Sounds like you all should probably think about closing the climb in question for the foreseeable future. From a professional standpoint there are just too many liabilities. Rocks of that size can do some decent damage to road surfaces. Plus, it sounds as if it may be a key holding back a larger mass. There is always some uncertainty when removing toe rocks. If it did release a rock that weighs over a 1000lbs the underlying roadbed could be severely damaged. On most of our contracts if we damage the road surface and or bed, then we have to pay for it, so we take many precautions to protect the road. Usually some combination of temporary fence and laying a foot of cushioning onto the roadbed. None of which are reasonable for the lay person. Once you bring in CDOT and the USFS the potential to get that crag closed is going to be high.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Andrew M Whitmore wrote:Sounds like you all should probably think about closing the climb in question for the foreseeable future. From a professional standpoint there are just too many liabilities. Rocks of that size can do some decent damage to road surfaces. Plus, it sounds as if it may be a key holding back a larger mass. There is always some uncertainty when removing toe rocks. If it did release a rock that weighs over a 1000lbs the underlying roadbed could be severely damaged. On most of our contracts if we damage the road surface and or bed, then we have to pay for it, so we take many precautions to protect the road. Usually some combination of temporary fence and laying a foot of cushioning onto the roadbed. None of which are reasonable for the lay person. Once you bring in CDOT and the USFS the potential to get that crag closed is going to be high.
I'm guessing you haven't been here. The only way this crag will get closed is by CDOT. Super high traffic area literally on the road. It's a cirucs on a saturday morning.

That being said of course safetey is high priority!.
Dave Hurst · · somewhat near Boulder CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5

Why doesn't one of you simply call the CDOT Boulder office???

(303) 442-4382

They scale rocks all the time, it's not that big a deal...CDOT brings in professional rock scaling guys, not amateur boulder rollers. CSP and CDOT closes the road for a while, then reopens it afterwards. This happens 10 times a week in this part of the state. I cannot imagine they would see it necessary to close the Boulderado except during the scaling.

sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60

I don't have a background in construction so sorry if this is not a viable idea, but what about cementing that loose block to the block(s) behind it? That's how some buildings were made so it's probably pretty stable, as the wet sludge can enter all the crevices and the rocks behind it would hold it in place.

Andrew Whitmore · · Montana · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 625
Dave Hurst wrote:Why doesn't one of you simply call the CDOT Boulder office??? (303) 442-4382 They scale rocks all the time, it's not that big a deal...CDOT brings in professional rock scaling guys, not amateur boulder rollers. CSP and CDOT closes the road for a while, then reopens it afterwards. This happens 10 times a week in this part of the state. I cannot imagine they would see it necessary to close the Boulderado except during the scaling.
Seems logical. Thats usually how its done in high traffic areas. I wasn't trying to tell anybody how to do it, just how the industry treats it. But I was implying that if a large rock in a known climbing area "mysteriously" damages a roadway there might be consequences that impact access.
Andrew Whitmore · · Montana · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 625
Scott McMahon wrote: I'm guessing you haven't been here. The only way this crag will get closed is by CDOT. Super high traffic area literally on the road. It's a cirucs on a saturday morning. That being said of course safetey is high priority!.
Oh, I've climbed around Boulder a few times over the past 15 years. Nice place, a little busy for my tastes though.
Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Andrew M Whitmore wrote: Nice place, a little busy for my tastes though.
Way busy!!! Must be that 50 foot approach! haha!
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Dave Hurst wrote:Why doesn't one of you simply call the CDOT Boulder office??? (303) 442-4382 They scale rocks all the time, it's not that big a deal...CDOT brings in professional rock scaling guys, not amateur boulder rollers. CSP and CDOT closes the road for a while, then reopens it afterwards. This happens 10 times a week in this part of the state. I cannot imagine they would see it necessary to close the Boulderado except during the scaling.
There may be a much simpler solution, but that is on the table.
If you want to participate directly in the discussion that the people that have been there with a specific eye on this situation are having, let me know by PM and I can include you.

Andrew M Whitmore wrote:Sounds like you all should probably think about closing the climb in question for the foreseeable future. From a professional standpoint there are just too many liabilities. Rocks of that size can do some decent damage to road surfaces. Plus, it sounds as if it may be a key holding back a larger mass. There is always some uncertainty when removing toe rocks. If it did release a rock that weighs over a 1000lbs the underlying roadbed could be severely damaged. On most of our contracts if we damage the road surface and or bed, then we have to pay for it, so we take many precautions to protect the road. Usually some combination of temporary fence and laying a foot of cushioning onto the roadbed. None of which are reasonable for the lay person. Once you bring in CDOT and the USFS the potential to get that crag closed is going to be high.
The situation is not that immediate, nor is it our opinion that the larger rock would be destabilized. It is only "possible" but it would not immediately fall or anything. Sorry, I was probably not clear on that.

The suggestion to close the climb hasn't really been entertained. How do you "close" a climb anyway? And by what authority? We can't do that, and we couldn't enforce it if we did do it. Blob was closed last year and we have pictures on a motion camera that we put in an eagle nest of climbers going right through it during the closure. (Face palm - dumbasses).

The rock is about 500lbs and would hit a large ledge and fragment before coming down. You are welcome to go have a look and render a different opinion, but I think that close examination will reveal things that casual examination will not, IE the nature of the block behind the flake in question - it really is one continuous piece and does sit on an inward sloping ledge.
The big worry would be if someone were to pry the flake and destabilize that - or not split it before dislodging and effectively "hammer" that bit.

Ana Tine wrote:I don't have a background in construction so sorry if this is not a viable idea, but what about cementing that loose block to the block(s) behind it? That's how some buildings were made so it's probably pretty stable, as the wet sludge can enter all the crevices and the rocks behind it would hold it in place.
That is precisely the nature of our present discussion. We think we might be able to put mortar or epoxy or some sort behind it and then sledge it back into place. A little more of something under the block on the front edge that keeps it from tipping forward might also be good.
If you've done this sort of thing before, perhaps you'd want to come up there with a few of us and render an opinion on best materials?

We need something that will stay in place and not flow out. We don't want it to be visible. I was considering PC-7. (Which is what thy glue reflectors to the highway with.)

The other option is to split the block (we know how to do this and there is a person posting here that has plenty of experience), bolt both sides, and then lower it off. If it looked like the block behind it was less than stellar after that, then we could call C-DOT. But that loose flake isn't holding anything up right now anyway.
Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

One more set of experienced rock-hazard mitigation folks is going up to have a look on Monday, weather permitting, which will make 3 pairs in all. We'll have a pow-wow after than and make a decision. Anyone wanting to be involved in the discussion, please let me know. The only prerequisites to joining in with the discussion we will be having is that you 1) Care and went to help, and 2) have checked it out in person.
Greg's video is great, compared to no view, but isn't quite as I saw it in person.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Mention gunite or ShotCrete at the meeting Monday morning if you plan on using cement. The nozzle man would have to climb up to the loose block but if you're going with a cement fix, that's the way to go.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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