RESOLVED: Dangerous Loose Rock Removal Boulder Canyon
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Today I was climbing at The Boulderado on Ho Hum and I encountered almost pulling off a 4 ft by 1 ft by 1 ft boulder, which would not only take out anything in belay area below, but would likely continue down into the road, even possibly make it to the water. |
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Yikes. Boy, I don't hear an up side here. |
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I can't even picture where there would be loose rock there, so it must be a doozy. Mark it with an X. Maybe a call into CDOT? |
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Splitting and lowering has worked pretty well in Eldo and the elephant buttresses. I haven't seen it, but the kickers are going to be 1) the road and 2) the landowners (osmp, usfs, cdot, bcos, private, ?, ...) |
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Mike McHugh wrote:Splitting and lowering has worked pretty well in Eldo and the elephant buttresses. I haven't seen it, but the kickers are going to be 1) the road and 2) the landowners (osmp, usfs, cdot, bcos, private, ?, ...) I'll send a message to tony b and roger from BCC - they've got the best understanding of the area. Personally I think it's wise to proceed very carefully just because it could go so wrong. Amped to help out if I can.Honestly I think if you try to remove it yourself you will be looking for trouble...fines, trip to jail, whatever. This is right over the road. If the block is that big they need to stop traffic to either trundle or lower it somehow. Once that puppy comes off it's all a guess where it's gonna go. |
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@C Jefferson |
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Scott McMahon wrote: Honestly I think if you try to remove it yourself you will be looking for trouble...fines, trip to jail, whatever. This is right over the road. If the block is that big they need to stop traffic to either trundle or lower it somehow. Once that puppy comes off it's all a guess where it's gonna go.Scott - maybe I did a bad job of expressing myself (happens a lot). You're absolutely right, and we agree. If the all the proper parties are involved (CDOT/landowner/BCC/...) I'd be happy to help. I think (hope) I've got a pretty solid rep for doing this work professionally and safely. |
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So your preferred option is to leave the obviously dangerous block in place, then decry the "poor judgement" of anyone involved in any future accident? I am having difficulty discerning helpfulness in this approach. |
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OK, had a look at the block with someone else. |
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I understand that this is a mostly trad/TR area, but could you bolt it into the rock somehow? I've seen this done in a couple of places which is the only reason I am bring it up. It is definitely not pretty or good for the rock in a sense, but it could be effective. |
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Sounds like you all should probably think about closing the climb in question for the foreseeable future. From a professional standpoint there are just too many liabilities. Rocks of that size can do some decent damage to road surfaces. Plus, it sounds as if it may be a key holding back a larger mass. There is always some uncertainty when removing toe rocks. If it did release a rock that weighs over a 1000lbs the underlying roadbed could be severely damaged. On most of our contracts if we damage the road surface and or bed, then we have to pay for it, so we take many precautions to protect the road. Usually some combination of temporary fence and laying a foot of cushioning onto the roadbed. None of which are reasonable for the lay person. Once you bring in CDOT and the USFS the potential to get that crag closed is going to be high. |
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Andrew M Whitmore wrote:Sounds like you all should probably think about closing the climb in question for the foreseeable future. From a professional standpoint there are just too many liabilities. Rocks of that size can do some decent damage to road surfaces. Plus, it sounds as if it may be a key holding back a larger mass. There is always some uncertainty when removing toe rocks. If it did release a rock that weighs over a 1000lbs the underlying roadbed could be severely damaged. On most of our contracts if we damage the road surface and or bed, then we have to pay for it, so we take many precautions to protect the road. Usually some combination of temporary fence and laying a foot of cushioning onto the roadbed. None of which are reasonable for the lay person. Once you bring in CDOT and the USFS the potential to get that crag closed is going to be high.I'm guessing you haven't been here. The only way this crag will get closed is by CDOT. Super high traffic area literally on the road. It's a cirucs on a saturday morning. That being said of course safetey is high priority!. |
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Why doesn't one of you simply call the CDOT Boulder office??? |
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I don't have a background in construction so sorry if this is not a viable idea, but what about cementing that loose block to the block(s) behind it? That's how some buildings were made so it's probably pretty stable, as the wet sludge can enter all the crevices and the rocks behind it would hold it in place. |
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Dave Hurst wrote:Why doesn't one of you simply call the CDOT Boulder office??? (303) 442-4382 They scale rocks all the time, it's not that big a deal...CDOT brings in professional rock scaling guys, not amateur boulder rollers. CSP and CDOT closes the road for a while, then reopens it afterwards. This happens 10 times a week in this part of the state. I cannot imagine they would see it necessary to close the Boulderado except during the scaling.Seems logical. Thats usually how its done in high traffic areas. I wasn't trying to tell anybody how to do it, just how the industry treats it. But I was implying that if a large rock in a known climbing area "mysteriously" damages a roadway there might be consequences that impact access. |
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Scott McMahon wrote: I'm guessing you haven't been here. The only way this crag will get closed is by CDOT. Super high traffic area literally on the road. It's a cirucs on a saturday morning. That being said of course safetey is high priority!.Oh, I've climbed around Boulder a few times over the past 15 years. Nice place, a little busy for my tastes though. |
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Andrew M Whitmore wrote: Nice place, a little busy for my tastes though.Way busy!!! Must be that 50 foot approach! haha! |
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Dave Hurst wrote:Why doesn't one of you simply call the CDOT Boulder office??? (303) 442-4382 They scale rocks all the time, it's not that big a deal...CDOT brings in professional rock scaling guys, not amateur boulder rollers. CSP and CDOT closes the road for a while, then reopens it afterwards. This happens 10 times a week in this part of the state. I cannot imagine they would see it necessary to close the Boulderado except during the scaling.There may be a much simpler solution, but that is on the table. If you want to participate directly in the discussion that the people that have been there with a specific eye on this situation are having, let me know by PM and I can include you. Andrew M Whitmore wrote:Sounds like you all should probably think about closing the climb in question for the foreseeable future. From a professional standpoint there are just too many liabilities. Rocks of that size can do some decent damage to road surfaces. Plus, it sounds as if it may be a key holding back a larger mass. There is always some uncertainty when removing toe rocks. If it did release a rock that weighs over a 1000lbs the underlying roadbed could be severely damaged. On most of our contracts if we damage the road surface and or bed, then we have to pay for it, so we take many precautions to protect the road. Usually some combination of temporary fence and laying a foot of cushioning onto the roadbed. None of which are reasonable for the lay person. Once you bring in CDOT and the USFS the potential to get that crag closed is going to be high.The situation is not that immediate, nor is it our opinion that the larger rock would be destabilized. It is only "possible" but it would not immediately fall or anything. Sorry, I was probably not clear on that. The suggestion to close the climb hasn't really been entertained. How do you "close" a climb anyway? And by what authority? We can't do that, and we couldn't enforce it if we did do it. Blob was closed last year and we have pictures on a motion camera that we put in an eagle nest of climbers going right through it during the closure. (Face palm - dumbasses). The rock is about 500lbs and would hit a large ledge and fragment before coming down. You are welcome to go have a look and render a different opinion, but I think that close examination will reveal things that casual examination will not, IE the nature of the block behind the flake in question - it really is one continuous piece and does sit on an inward sloping ledge. The big worry would be if someone were to pry the flake and destabilize that - or not split it before dislodging and effectively "hammer" that bit. Ana Tine wrote:I don't have a background in construction so sorry if this is not a viable idea, but what about cementing that loose block to the block(s) behind it? That's how some buildings were made so it's probably pretty stable, as the wet sludge can enter all the crevices and the rocks behind it would hold it in place.That is precisely the nature of our present discussion. We think we might be able to put mortar or epoxy or some sort behind it and then sledge it back into place. A little more of something under the block on the front edge that keeps it from tipping forward might also be good. If you've done this sort of thing before, perhaps you'd want to come up there with a few of us and render an opinion on best materials? We need something that will stay in place and not flow out. We don't want it to be visible. I was considering PC-7. (Which is what thy glue reflectors to the highway with.) The other option is to split the block (we know how to do this and there is a person posting here that has plenty of experience), bolt both sides, and then lower it off. If it looked like the block behind it was less than stellar after that, then we could call C-DOT. But that loose flake isn't holding anything up right now anyway. |
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One more set of experienced rock-hazard mitigation folks is going up to have a look on Monday, weather permitting, which will make 3 pairs in all. We'll have a pow-wow after than and make a decision. Anyone wanting to be involved in the discussion, please let me know. The only prerequisites to joining in with the discussion we will be having is that you 1) Care and went to help, and 2) have checked it out in person. |
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Mention gunite or ShotCrete at the meeting Monday morning if you plan on using cement. The nozzle man would have to climb up to the loose block but if you're going with a cement fix, that's the way to go. |