Falling: good or bad?

To, to summarize, the leader can or must not fall or perhaps can take as many falls as are calculated to hit air and not actual rock, being on an overhang or some other very steep rock face whereupon gear and or bolts are sound but is not otherwise obligated to do a goddamned thing if he or she doesn't want to.

I fell off something well below my max onsite level on Sunday. I was just feeling super relaxed and maybe being a little too cavalier about my foot placement during a fairly technical move. wasn't expecting it at all.

It was good because it reminded me of two things:

1.) that I can blow off at any moment and will most likely be ok -- the system works...

2.) unless it doesn't (something fails, belayer isn't paying attention, there is an unavoidable ledge below, etc.). It could've been worse so pay attention and remember that what you are doing is serious and can turn ugly at the drop of a hat (or leader).

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As others have said, practice falls in a controlled environment to learn how to do it safely (there are many gym falling drills you can do -- e.g.: have your belayer yell "fall" at random but when doing so will be safe. when they do, you have to fall immediately), then you won't feel so out of control when it happens for real.

When climbing outside, always be paying attention to what is below and around you and what your rope is running over, testing the rock (on Sunday I also pulled off a chunk from a different route that was a solid handhold just last year), and thinking about how the protection interacts as a system.

So... falling can be a good thing, as long as it doesn't end badly. And you can reduce that possibility somewhat by practicing and maintaining awareness.

teece303 wrote:This is a settled issue. “The leader must not fall” is from a bygone era when the hemp rope might break, it no longer applies (excepting ice climbers, I guess? I dunno, I don't do that). And naturally, a soloist must not fall, but something tells me they already knew that... One must, of course, know when a fall is reasonably safe, but if you're not falling, you are not climbing anywhere near your limit. In modern sport climbing, it's silly not to fall (and I say that as someone who is bad at taking lead falls). Trad is a bit different, but modern gear works, so... That said, one is under zero obligation to push their limits, so you don't have to fall if you don't want to. But it's the quickest way to get better: take the (safe) falls.

There are plenty of bolted and non-bolted routes that still follow the don't fall principle. Go climb (half free solo) snake dike, all the 50+ ft slab runouts in NC and you will still very much be under the don't fall mentality.

It isn't true everywhere but it still applies in some areas.

If you are on bolts and you don't have a ledge below you i say push yourself until you fail because you are going to be fine or minor injury at most. (hit the 1 rock sticking out on an almost completely flat wall from a 30ft fall onetime and limped for a good week)

I just spent a couple of days instructing at the Black Diamond Rock Project and this topic was one that was talked about a lot. The athletes I was with (Daniel Jung, Hazel Findlay) felt that falling and knowing how and when to fall was super important in climbing. Paige Claasen gave a slide show where she estimated she has fallen 60,000 times in the last 15 years. All the worlds best fall all the time. You really don't know if you could have climbed it if you take.

More important is knowing when you can or cant fall ... And for that theres no easy short cuts, just mileage and knowledge

Remember on many if not most moderates the gear is not to keep you from getting hurt but keep you alive ... If you walk away from a fall on a 5.7/8/9, sacrifice a household pet in thanks to da whippah gods

;)

bearbreeder wrote:More important is knowing when you can or cant fall ... And for that theres no easy short cuts, just mileage and knowledge Remember on many if not most moderates the gear is not to keep you from getting hurt but keep you alive ... If you walk away from a fall on a 5.7/8/9, sacrifice a household pet in thanks to da whippah gods ;)

While not really a fan of the cam jargon and data spew you like, I agree most with this statement on this thread so far.

Good or bad? As usual, it depends.

I think the "leader must not fall" is for the more patient and relaxed climbers who are willing to put in years and years of work to get to 5.11(or whatever their goal is). I know a couple of climbers that will only under the most rare circumstances go beyond 5.9+ on gear. I've never seen them fall on gear. I also hear them say they want to climb harder, but are happy where they are now.

The gear is made to fall on, and we're supposed to place it in such a way that it works as designed. If you don't have the confidence to fall on every piece you place, why are you placing it? There are people working 5.13 gear routes falling on C3s repeatedly and still walking around to brag about it. I think its the easier stuff that brings in a lot of negativity on trad falls. The gear is made with materials that are insanely strong, leaving the only error to be had in the hands of the user. How confident are you in yourself?

If there are bolts in the wall, and you're not using a manky rope, there is no reason not to fall. The whole point of the bolts is to take most safety concerns away so you can focus on the climbing, or to climb things that can't be protected with trad. Not saying that you SHOULD fall. Climb what and how you want. But with modern tech, there is no reason that you should not take a fall.

If you never fall you will never know how to fall. Then when you do you may get hurt. Knowing how to fall is one of the most important skills you should have, yet few practice it. In fact, if is one of the only times you can get hurt besides rockfall and rappel accidents etc.

Also, If you are terrified of falling you will hold yourself back only climbing routes below your limit. Look at how many MoPro profiles say lead 11 sport 7 trad or 12 sport 6 trad. This is plain silly. Personally, I trust my gear more than bolts placed by others. Intentional falls will do wonders for your climbing and enjoyment. Knowing where and when to take intentional falls is a whole other story. If you are good at assessing your gear, have at least two if not three pieces between you and the hospital and the fall deemed safe, let er buck.

You will also give your belayer valuable practice and keep him/her alert that falls do happen. Stop picking your nose while belaying.

This will probably get buried, but I have to write it anyway for my own mental clarity. Here it goes:

When I'm climbing I often look at some potential lead falls that may seem unsafe for whatever dumb reason I have decided falling is unsafe in the situation, this is often entirely mental and the fall is a totally safe one. It's easy to work through that, but it still takes me time. The mentality that "the leader must not fall" is not nearly as relevant today as it was when we were still climbing on ropes made of braided hemp. Climbing is what you make of it, and I personally like to push myself mentally to some extent. That involves falling whether I like it or not.

Bouldering? You're going to fall a lot, it isn't even avoidable. Don't fall on deathball routes, don't climb deathball routes at your limit. Easy enough.

Top Rope? Try not to swing into anything, fall a lot, climb at your limit, psyche yourself out and then climb through it. Great practice, and if you're a nervous wreck it can feel as awesome as leading.

Sport climbing? Look at the fall zone, size it up, and see if you feel like whipping is okay or not. If it isn't there is no shame in bailing. I'd rather bail than take a 20ft cheese grater whipper down a slab that might topple me over backwards and smash my head into a million lego sized fragments because I wasn't wearing a helmet.

Trad? The best thing I ever did for my climbing mentality was whip on trad gear. The first time I fell my only thought was "holy shit the gear actually holds". If you're going to do a move that you're less confident about on gear, just place two pieces and go for it. If you're trying to push yourself then you're going to fall, no matter what you're climbing. Every time I've said take after I place a piece I regret it. What if I could have made the next moves?

I don't consider failure to be failing to climb a route completely free, I consider failure to be giving in to your minds aversion to the perceived danger. Climbing for me is mostly about overcoming my own mind, and falling is a part of that. I've climbed on gear and taken ground falls (no serious injuries yet thankfully). I've had pieces pull, I've been scared totally shitless, I've been hurt. Shit happens when you're climbing, but if you're constantly worried about the endless possibilities of death when you're climbing, I think that you'll find yourself not getting very far on the road to climbing enlightenment. Falling is important to understand what you're capable of doing, and stepping outside your perceived limitations.There is bliss to be found on the edge of security and flight.

TL;DR Falling will probably turn you into a happier, more secure climber. Physical injuries are temporary compared to the beautiful feelings experienced on the edge of flight.

Thanks

-E

Falling can be OK to not so OK. But landing - now that's never so good :).

bearbreeder wrote:More important is knowing when you can or cant fall ... And for that theres no easy short cuts, just mileage and knowledge

Yep, here the Bear has it spot on - continuously monitoring the fall potential is another one of those background tasks that should be running almost subconsciously as you climb.

[ Also keep in mind that even when you do fall, ninety-nine times out of a hundred you won't be falling at your physical limit, you'll actually be jumping off at your emotional limit. ]

Except ice. Don't fall on ice. Please don't be the dude bragging he "redpointed Bridal Veil!"

Ask folks like Dean Potter, Beth Rodden, Tommy Caldwell, Katie Brown.

Do they fall?

Healyje wrote:continuously monitoring the fall potential is another one of those background tasks that should be running almost subconsciously as you climb.

This is a key climbing skill: situational awareness. It's as important (maybe more important) as learning to place pro, climbing movement skills, etc.

Healyje wrote:[ Also keep in mind that even when you do fall, ninety-nine times out of a hundred you won't be falling at your physical limit, you'll actually be jumping off at your emotional limit. ]

This is where a mental training class like those taught by Arno Ilgner is a good investment. Learning to recognize when your mental/emotional limits are holding you back can really improve your climbing.

As to the cliché "if you're not falling, you're not pushing yourself" -- well, I think that's largely true, but at this point in my life, I care a lot less about pushing myself and a lot more about just enjoying climbing while I still can.

JL

To the conversation of situational awareness, for the geeks in the crowd...

falling != hitting

On the good / bad scale, hitting is definitely "bad".

Edit: And, no, I didn't see the comment about about "landing" before posting...

Healyje wrote:[ Also keep in mind that even when you do fall, ninety-nine times out of a hundred you won't be falling at your physical limit, you'll actually be jumping off at your emotional limit. ]

saxfiend wrote:This is where a mental training class like those taught by Arno Ilgner is a good investment.

The awareness I was jumping off rather than falling was a real watershed of sorts for me. After that, I told myself to just hang on for a second longer, then five seconds longer, and then a year later I was sending some pretty hard routes. Never would have happened if I hadn't recognized and acknowledged that somewhat awkward and difficult-to-admit reality.

That said, however, I'd still say that in forty-one years of climbing I've probably climbed at my true physical limit only a handful of times - like less than a dozen - and half of those I was going to die if I didn't. I suspect only a few very rare souls ever climb anywhere close to their physical limit on any consistent or regular basis.

You can push your emotional limit out quite a bit but, at least for myself, I know I'm still actually jumping off most of the time even when it's long dicey trad falls on FAs where the last thing in the world I really want to do is to come off (but still, there I go - leaping into space, yet again). Don't underestimate whats going on emotionally in your head when you get gripped.

Can you rationally think your way through it ala Arno? My experience/opinion is there's not much you can do in the way of reasoning on the ground that helps and I personally could never afford more than that fleeting "hang on just a second longer..." while I was gripped at a crux . But, do it enough times and that simple acknowledgment you want to jump can add up to impressive gains.

Healyje wrote:The awareness I was jumping off rather than falling was a real watershed of sorts for me.

That's what it was like for me too (though not climbing at your level, by any means). I vividly recall the trad lead where I realized that inner voice that was screaming "let go/call for take/I can't hang on any longer" could be overcome, didn't have to be given in to. When I placed my last piece and moved to the topout, I was far happier about my mental victory than I was with the onsight!

To your question about Arno -- well, all I can say is, it's a path that worked for me. I think you're right that it's not a rational thing anymore once you get on the rock. But if you've cultivated and internalized that mindset (as you must internalize the situational awareness thing), the push past the mental -- or if you prefer, emotional -- limit will happen when it needs to.

JL

saxfiend wrote: That's what it was like for me too (though not climbing at your level, by any means).

I'd say the level is irrelevant. It's simply the acknowledgment / admission that your jumping off [at any grade] that counts.

While I would agree with previous posters that knowing when you can fall is important (naturally), even once you're able to make the distinction, you're still a long way from not being _afraid_ to fall, even under ideal circumstances. And ridding yourself of that fear takes air-time, and a lot of it. Knowing your harness/rope/bolt is bomber intellectually is different from believing it viscerally. Only repeated empirical experiences can engender that kind of deep trust. Once you've left the ground, irrational fears will only detract from your experience.

I used to be afraid to fly. You could argue whether or not this fear was rational or not (planes do crash), just as you could argue whether being afraid to fall in "fall-positive" situations is rational (ropes cut, bolts pull). The point is, if the fear isn't great enough to ground you, it's in your best interest to mitigate it. If you climb on a rope (or fly on a plane) you've already accepted the minuscule risk of freak occurrences, so fear at that point only serves to sour the experience. It took me hundreds of whips (and dozens of flights) before I was able to rid the fear of falling (or crashing) from my mind, and it still pops up from time to time. But climbing is a lot more fun now.

The leader must not fall still applies if you are on ice. With respect to rock, it's pretty much been addressed by most of the other replies. Tailor your view on falling with respect to the consequences and medium you are climbing.