Cobra Anchors -- Reviews?

Bolt geeks, I need your help.

I've been a loyal fan of the Rawl 5-Piece, more recently known as the Power Bolt (by Powers). Primarily I like the low-profile bolt head and ease of removal (as compared to an exposed threaded stud+nut designs). According to Fixe USA, this bolt is being discontinued:

"A message from Kevin regarding the Powers 5-Piece Bolts:

So here is the lowdown with what has been going on with the Powers now owned by Stanley Black & Decker company.

As you all know the standard plated steel 5-piece bolt has been hard to come by. Stanley has decided to completely ELIMINATE the series of plated steel bolts. A new model is now available with the same product number with the inclusion of SD. These new SD bolts meet stricter construction perameters. The ISSUE is twofold, first the cost is more than double verses the old model and secondly and MOST importantly the design has changed on both the 3/8 and ½ models. The new SD 3/8 bolt uses a ¼ diameter grade 8 bolt. The grade 8 is a upgrade over the grade 5 5/16 bolt used in the old version BUT it’s a ¼ bolt. Bottom line is the strengths are NOT adequate for our needs. I have had many discussions with the Powers engineers, outside engineers, my attorney and my insurance company and have made the decision to NOT sell the new SD series in the 3/8 diameters. I am selling the SD ½ series BUT the cost is now so high I don’t see it as being a value product any longer."


The Fixe page goes on to recommend the Cobra Supersleeve:

"SO

I have been aware the company COBRA that makes sleeve bolts for the construction industry. Some friends of mine have been using the 3/8 and ½ SUPERSLEEVE™ models for many years now with excellent results. It’s a solid design and does the job well. I am now offering these bolts as an alternative to the Power bolt SD. "



Has anyone used these? Care to vouch for them? I'm not super impressed by the strength ratings of the Cobra bolts, compared to the Power Bolt (download required) but their info doesn't provide much detail, so it's not entirely clear what their terminology really means.

Here are my interpretations of the ratings in a nutshell:

For 3000 PSI Normal Weight Concrete:
3/8 x 3.5 Power Bolt: Ultimate Tension: 5195 lb; Ultimate Shear: 6815 lb.
3/8 x 4 Cobra Super Sleeve: "Pull Max": 2800 lb.; "Shear Max": 3000 lb.

Allowable Loads:
3/8 x 3.5 Power Bolt: Tension: 1300 lb; Shear: 1705 lb.
3/8 x 4 Cobra Super Sleeve: "Pull Safe": 700 lb.; "Shear Safe": 750 lb.

I don't get a warm fuzzy that the Cobra Supersleeve is an adequate replacement for the Power Bolt. Looking at photos it seems possible that the bolt is threaded for the entire bolt length, which could explain the inferior strength ratings. Am I missing something?

Any information on how this new SD compares to the Power Bolt +? I'm pretty sure the 3/8 Power Bolt + also has a 1/4" internal bolt diameter.

Monomaniac wrote: I don't get a warm fuzzy that the Cobra Supersleeve is an adequate replacement for the Power Bolt. Looking at photos it seems possible that the bolt is threaded for the entire bolt length, which could explain the inferior strength ratings. Am I missing something?

I've seen the Cobras and they 100% have threads the entire shaft length. I don't like them at all and was replacing any I found with Powers or Glue Ins when ever I could. The threads make the shaft even LESS than 5/16th and are another area where corrosion can play a role. PASS

At this point, the PS 5-Pieces were the only bolt, in my opinion, where you might be able to make a case for PS and cost effectiveness. Now that PS is cobras or studs, I think SS is the only option and really, it should be.

As far as quality goes, in my opinion, all climbers should ONLY buy ICC-ES rated stainless wedge anchors. (formerly called ICBO, if you pick up an old box off Ebay you may see that instead) Think UL rating for a toaster. Very similar. All decent Mfg are on board the ICC rating. Red Head, Hilti, Powers, US Anchor, Simspon..etc. Product can be made in China and still have an ICC approval. I don't see that listed anywhere on the Cobra anchor web site.

Do you see it on there someplace?

kennyp wrote:Any information on how this new SD compares to the Power Bolt +? I'm pretty sure the 3/8 Power Bolt + also has a 1/4" internal bolt diameter.

EDIT TO ADD: My understanding is that the "SD" is the Power-Bolt+. If you look at Powers' product numbers, the PB+'s all have an "SD" at the end of the number. /End Edit.

Here are the PB+ Specs:

Ultimate:
Power-Bolt+ Specs

Allowable:

Allowable Loads for PB+

My interpretation of this data is that the Cobra Supersleeve is weaker than the PB+, at least at 3/8" diameter. The part I can't figure out is why is Fixe recommending the 3/8" Cobra Supersleeve as a replacement for the 3/8" Power Bolt, while saying the 3/8" PB+ is unsafe for climbing? My assessment is that both (Cobra and PB+) are marginal at best, nowhere near the strength of the old Power Bolt, but if you had to choose one you would choose the PB+.

Billcoe wrote:As far as quality goes, in my opinion, all climbers should ONLY buy ICC-ES rated stainless wedge anchors. ...I don't see that listed anywhere on the Cobra anchor web site. Do you see it on there someplace?

I didn't look for it. I've only ever purchased Rawl 5-piece/Power Bolts. This is the first time I've had to look for something different. Do you have a specific product you recommend as a replacement for the 5-piece?

3000 lbs is not acceptable, please be responsible and do not use those anchors. I really doubt they will be discontinuing the power bolt/pb+, the pb+ has nearly the same spec ratings, the chart you should be looking at is breaking strength not allowable load capacities, the pb+ rates a few hundred pounds weaker in most categories than it's predecessor and marginally stronger in a couple categories. I don't know where you are bolting but the consensus around many climbing areas is that you should be using the stainless steel version. The best option for most areas are stainless steel glue ins like the wave bolt or jim titt twist bolt with a high quality 2 part epoxy, like manufactured by hilti or powers. Please do not use wedge bolts as they are very difficult to remove.

Aren't glue ins difficult to remove too?

I'm wondering what the removal difference is between wedge and glue in bolts?

The difference is that glue ins are going to last 50+ years, wedge bolts, even those that are stainless are not. No need to remove glue ins, just zip them off with a grinder at the base and very little metal remains showing at the surface of the rock. There is no perfect solution but I would consider well placed glue ins the safest and best option available, especially for those areas suffering from less than ideal rock quality.

If you must reuse the same hole the difference between wedge bolts and glue ins is negligible as they will both have to be core drilled.

John, I'll call Fasco in Vegas tomorrow. I'll ask about the 5 piece availability. 702 248 4000 open 6:00AM to 4:00PM

I also sent an email to Power Inc. back east

now wait.....

DrRockso wrote:The difference is that glue ins are going to last 50+ years, wedge bolts, even those that are stainless are not. No need to remove glue ins, just zip them off with a grinder at the base and very little metal remains showing at the surface of the rock. There is no perfect solution but I would consider well placed glue ins the safest and best option available, especially for those areas suffering from less than ideal rock quality.

In principle I hear what you are saying, but in practice I am not so sure. In short, I have some concerns with the average dingus incorrectly installing a glue in. Yes, yes, I understand that when installed correctly, that they are a 100 year bolt. But let's be honest here, lots of people installing hardware can barely tie their own shoes, much less make sure all variables are accounted for when installing a glue in (yes, I realize I am being a dick, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong). If Jim Titt is installing it, then fine, but what about your average bumbly?

I actually think that one of the beautiful things about a wedge anchor is that its pretty hard to f*ck up the installation. With the glue in, I can think of any number of things that might compromise the strength of the placement.

So my question is, how easy is it to F up installation of a glue in?

Anyway, to get back to Mono's original question (sorry for the thread drift Mark). Given that Greggor Man has come up with a clever solution to removing wedge bolts, why not just switch from Powers to wedges? Cheap, strong, and SS. Perhaps not as perfect a solution as a correctly installed glue in, but perhaps its a more practical solution for most of us? I guess my concern is that 5 years down the road we are going to have to go on a spree to replace incorrectly installed and unsafe glue ins. And yeah, that is going to be a mess.

And this doesn't even bring up the problem of messy install jobs...I mean, have you ever seen how quickly your average idiot can screw crag up trying to "fix" holds with glue (just go check out the once classic Soap... at Jailhouse in CA).

1/2" stainless 5-piece bolts are expensive, but they are 99% likely to be easy to remove when the time comes so that the hole can be reused. It's worth the cost to do the job right.

DrRockso wrote:If you must reuse the same hole the difference between wedge bolts and glue ins is negligible as they will both have to be core drilled.

Not so.
My success percentage on removing the last 30 or so 3/8" plated wedge bolts is about 90%. Spin them to score the wedge and they pull right out.
These are from Saturday:
Hardware removed from 'Laughing at the Moon', replaced with 1/2" stainless.

J. Albers wrote: why not just switch from Powers to wedges?

Because I don't like the way the stud and nut can interfere with the carabiner, etc, and they're still more difficult to remove than a sleeve bolt. But, I may have no choice soon.

J. Albers wrote:
"why not just switch from Powers to wedges?"

One of the major advantages of the Rawl/Power-bolt sleeve anchor that it is far superior than the stud bolt in medium and soft rock.

The bolt portion of a 3/8" Power-bolt is 5/16" and not completely threaded. That additional unthreaded 1/16" makes quite a difference in strength.

There are other ways to remove glue-ins besides cutting them off should you need to some distant day in the future.

Jan Roestel wrote:J. Albers wrote: "why not just switch from Powers to wedges?" One of the major advantages of the Rawl/Power-bolt sleeve anchor that it is far superior than the stud bolt in medium and soft rock. .

Yeah, I realize this, but I was also taking into account that most of the stone (besides maybe limestone) that Mono is sinking bolts into is either granite or gneiss/schist, which is hard enough to justify a wedge versus a sleeve.

Monomaniac wrote: Because I don't like the way the stud and nut can interfere with the carabiner, etc, and they're still more difficult to remove than a sleeve bolt. But, I may have no choice soon.

Interesting. I guess the exposed stud never bothered me. To each his own though.

Nice work Greggers. I wouldn't say that glue-ins are that difficult to install, given you drill the hole deep enough, use a good bolt such as the Titty Twister or Wave, use enough glue and the correct type of glue, and most importantly clean the hole out properly (with a brush and blowing it out with air repeatedly until absolutely no rock dust is coming out.) Honestly I think if you can't follow these simple guidelines you shouldn't be affixing hardware anywhere. Some more in depth videos on how to place glue ins are going to be out there soon.

Monomaniac wrote: Because I don't like the way the stud and nut can interfere with the carabiner, etc, and they're still more difficult to remove than a sleeve bolt. But, I may have no choice soon.

Using the larger Fixe hangers vs the "standard size" Petzl, ClimbTech or Metolius hangers largely eliminates this issue. I personally have never been bothered by it all that much either.

I too have concluded that SS studs can be a better choice depending on the circumstances, particularly given the recent work I've seen GreggerMan do.

DrRockso wrote:The difference is that glue ins are going to last 50+ years, wedge bolts, even those that are stainless are not. No need to remove glue ins, just zip them off with a grinder at the base and very little metal remains showing at the surface of the rock. There is no perfect solution but I would consider well placed glue ins the safest and best option available, especially for those areas suffering from less than ideal rock quality.

Not sure that a stainless wedge bolt/hanger wouldn't last as long as a glue in, at least in good rock in the interior of the west.

Studs are pretty easy to bust or torque off flush, pound in, and patch with no grinder needed.

Sure, for soft rock, glue ins seem to be the best option. I can't see most folks who are currently placing powerbolts going to a glue in system, at least not 'round here. I have a hard enough time getting people I know who bolt to consider stainless...

Someone who is talented at putting in glue ins really is a cut above the rest of us bangin' in a stud or power bolt. Given how folks can be a tad cheap, I'll always wonder what glue system they used and did it really "take". Ditto their care with hole prep. With mechanical fixed hardware...well, I guess I can't tell if they overtorqued the bolt...ha ha.

I get Mark's concern about the nut/stud interfering with a carabiner (or the possibility of interference). Minimizing the stud sticking out versus thread engagement takes some experience to figure out. I wonder if cutting them off flush then dulling the sharp edges might be a best practice...

Is this just the non-SS versions that are being discontinued? Kevin's note seems to be indicating that. If so, what is the problem? People shouldn't be using non- stainless anyway. I would be glad to see him stop selling the plated stuff.
I use Powers SS 1/2 x 2 3/4, 5 Piece Bolt #R5930 for good granite (occasionally Fixe SS 3/8" Wedge Bolts for slabs)

and Fixe or Wave SS glue-ins for more porous rock like schist.

Cutting them off flush seems more work than it's worth, and the high temperatures created when grinding that close to an integral part of the bolt is probably not good for its temperament. The bigger hanger may be the best option if interference becomes an issue. Not to mention marring up the threads is going to make it difficult to replace the nut and hanger if necessary. I do think that SS Glue-Ins are going to last longer than SS wedge bolts for a few reasons.

1. The entire bolt is encapsulated in glue allowing no water or minerals to reach the bolt, remember SS is corrosion resistant not corrosion proof and the bolt could eventually suffer some corrosion.

2. The bolts is bonded to the rock throughout the entire placement instead of just at the back of the hole, more surface area = more holding power and less rock degradation from repeated falls (perhaps not a concern in harder rock). Overall the bolt can be twice as strong in testing as it's wedge and 5 piece counterparts.

3. No maintenance is necessary for glue-ins, you will never have to carry a wrench to tighten down spinners or worry that someone may have over-torqued the bolt.

An added bonus for me is that a a glue-in with well camouflaged glue is much less obtrusive and more visually aesthetic than a hanger and bolt.