Mountain Project Logo

Broken Cam thread

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Ray Pinpillage wrote: BDE introduced its clothing line in the fall of 2013.
Are you sure? I know I have gloves from about 2008 that are BD.

For climbing I bet the harness/belay device/locker is their primary sales. QD's and biners after that. Cams and nuts after that.

Where do backpacks factor in?
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

Malcolm talked to Dave about buying him out several times, but - if I recall correctly - on running the due diligence he came to believe it didn't pencil out due to the labor costs associated with the complexity of the design.

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

I was told something similar, Joe, with the addition that chunks of the financials provided for review were often missing.

Anyway....

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
nicelegs wrote: Are you sure? I know I have gloves from about 2008 that are BD. For climbing I bet the harness/belay device/locker is their primary sales. QD's and biners after that. Cams and nuts after that. Where do backpacks factor in?
Apparel does not include gloves or backpacks. BD has been making gloves since almost the beginning. I have a pair of "Ice" gloves I bought from them when I lived next door in the 90's.

100K units of X4's is less than 5M in revenue.

sltrib.com/sltrib/money/568…
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Back on topic, Nicelegs, I think you have a point in qualifying the reported failure. Too much of this discussion is anecdotal and guessing.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Beside all the bullshit and meth'ed out geezer stuff, my point was only ever that I have 15 year old aliens that have seen plenty of misuse and abuse and they are fine. I have seen season old X4's and Mastercams that are wrecked.

FWIW, if the cam in the op was mine, I'd have filed off the bur and kept climbing. Not understanding maintenence is gear misuse.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

If BD is using a Six Sigma quality standard that would produce 3.4 / 1mil defects and hopefully those wouldn't ship. If there's an issue it's a design issue, not a manufacturing one. And if that's the case, and just like the MaxCam and Link Cam, then it's up to you as an informed leader to exploit their advantages and mitigate their disadvantages if you decide to use them.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

does anyone have a single sales figure of how many cams a major manufacturer sells in a recent year in north america (or europe)???

not some half assed guess ... but a real actual figure thats published???

like everything else here its all idle "speculation" till someone does for the X4

note that BD as been selling the C3s for quite a few years now ... and you dont hear too many durability problems with those (there is the occasional one but nothing like a thread like this) ... in fact up here theyre known for being very solid pieces

but who knows ... perhaps the X4 in the last year outsold the C3 and C4 in the last 7-8 years ... and thats why theres more folks with "problems" ... hmmmm

;)

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
bearbreeder wrote:does anyone have a single sales figure of how many cams a major manufacturer sells in a recent year in north america (or europe)??? not some half assed guess ... but a real actual figure thats published???
No one is going to publish those numbers. My guess:

a) Pick a number as to how many people put on a harness last year

b) Take 5% of that as the percentage who bought cams

c) Figure 60-65% of those bought BD

One report claims 6mil people participated in some form of climbing in 2009. Call it 75% had a harness on and you're at 4.5mil. Run the above and you get

4.5mil X 0.05 = 225k bought cams

225k X 0.60 = 135k bought BD cams

135k x 8 cams each = 1.08mil BD cams

1.08mil cams X $15.00 profit / cam = $16.2mil in BD cam profits

YMMV...
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

It was a CCH Alien, orange and dimpled and it blew the fuck up with only my body weight.

Did you de-burr that one special for me DOUCHEY?

EDITED:

"Too much of this discussion is anecdotal and guessing."

Similar to what Tim was getting at a few pages back and I totally agree. (Not that it matters ;-)

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Healyje wrote: No one is going to publish those numbers. My guess: a) Pick a number as to how many people put on a harness last year b) Take 5% of that as the percentage who bought cams c) Figure 60-65% of those bought BD One report claims 6mil people participated in some form of climbing in 2009. Call it 75% had a harness on and you're at 4.5mil. Run the above and you get 4.5mil X 0.05 = 225k bought cams 225k X 0.60 = 135k bought BD cams 135k x 8 cams each = 1.08mil BD cams 1.08mil cams X $15.00 profit / cam = $16.2mil in BD cam profits YMMV...
that sounds like a lot of speculative picking and choosing !!!

even the politicians around here spend more effort making up numbers for their campaign promises ... not that theyre anymore "correct"

anyways ... time to feed my beahs a vegan diet ...

;)
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
bearbreeder wrote: that sounds like a lot of speculative picking and choosing !!! even the politicians around here spend more effort making up numbers for their campaign promises ... not that theyre anymore "correct" anyways ... time to feed my beahs a vegan diet ... ;)
Again, the numbers you want aren't publicly available so speculating is about all you've got going...
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Dylan B. wrote:Speculation is worse than nothing because it provides the illusion that you can draw conclusions.
Well, in my line of work I sometimes build sophisticated scenario analyses for clients who pay me well for them. Several 'bet the farm' to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars every year based on short but intense periods of running various scenarios. None considered it "worse than nothing" or I'd be getting way more climbing in. Again, speculation is all you've got sometimes.
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
Healyje wrote: Again, the numbers you want aren't publicly available so speculating is about all you've got going...
Actually, all sorts of numbers are publicly available if you know where to look. Case in point, I'm rather surprised to see that BD only makes 20-25% of their products; the rest are 3rd party manufactured.

Also interesting is this tidbit:

"We compete with niche, privately-owned companies as well as a number of brands owned by large multinational companies, such as those set forth below.

Climb: Our climbing products and accessories, such as belay devices, carabiners, and harnesses, compete with products from
companies such as Arc’Teryx, Petzl, and Mammut."

Notice how they only list companies mainly involved in soft good manufacture? Cams must be a really small portion of their business.

http://www.blackdiamond-inc.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=118683&p=irol-reportsannual
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Aric Datesman wrote: Actually, all sorts of numbers are publicly available if you know where to look.
But no cam numbers. They made $77mil in 2013 profits so my speculation of $16.2mil of that coming from cams is probably high. I'd bump it down by a third or half.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Aric Datesman wrote: Notice how they only list companies mainly involved in soft good manufacture? Cams must be a really small portion of their business. blackdiamond-inc.com/phoeni…
They mentioned companies with broad product lines and production capabilities that actually compete with BD.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Healyje wrote: But no cam numbers. They made $77mil in 2013 profits so my speculation of $16.2mil of that coming from cams is probably high. I'd bump it down by a third or half.
BDE's P&L says they didn't make $77M in 2013 but lost $5.8M. Gross sales profit after COGS was $77M but SG&A was over $82M.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Ray Pinpillage wrote: BDE's P&L says they didn't make $77M in 2013 but lost $5.8M
Yes, I bet it did by the time they loaded it down with everything but the kitchen sink - look at the SG&A section for what they heaped on there. My numbers are just speculating on cam sales contribution to gross profit.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

This thread is no good without Douchey.

Douchey, come back please!

It's me Calvin and I miss you!

Kristen Fiore · · Burlington, VT · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 3,383

Glad to see this thread is still alive and hasn't drifted at all off topic... :P

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Climbing Gear Discussion
Post a Reply to "Broken Cam thread"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.