Broken Cam thread

An anecdote to add; please don't get all lynch-mobbish about climber error as this most likely was exactly that...

I took a ground fall last summer after a foot slip when a .2 (yellow) x4 pulled out of skunk crack up in boulder canyon, which is a notably slimy climb.

The cam did not invert, nor was it broken afterwards (though I retired it anyway). It was quite new; I can't guarantee I'd never hung or pulled on it, but I know this was its first real fall. However, the lobes were noticeably dinged up, with a lots of shiny newly-exposed and/or roughed-up aluminum showing and some significant deformation.

The placement *did* hold a significant amount of force before failing: pulling my belayer a bit off the ground, tightening the knot, and rotating me into a sitting position (so I ended up with a huge purple bruise on my ass for the next couple weeks). Also: aside from the bruise, I had zero injuries, which isn't very consistent with decking straight onto ones's tush from 15ish feet without _something_ absorbing most of the force along the way.

I've written this off as mostly just a bad placement + learning experience (next time: just use a crashpad that close to the ground, or just use a bigger piece even if it fills up a nice hold); my only lingering doubts come from:
- on TR inspection the crack I'd placed it in wasn't obviously bad wrt sizing/orientation, and
- the failure mode didn't really match my understanding of how cams work: I'd expected a failure to either (a) hold a negligible amount of force before popping due to a failure to grab the sides of the crack; or (b) fail due to mushrooming or rotation, rather than what appears to be a mostly straight-out pull. Could just be an issue with my expectations, especially as the forces involved may well have approached the cam's rating.

Dan.Crux00 wrote:An anecdote to add; please don't get all lynch-mobbish about climber error as this most likely was exactly that... I took a ground fall last summer after a foot slip when a .2 (yellow) x4 pulled out of skunk crack up in boulder canyon, which is a notably slimy climb. The cam did not invert, nor was it broken afterwards (though I retired it anyway). It was quite new; I can't guarantee I'd never hung or pulled on it, but I know this was its first real fall. However, the lobes were noticeably dinged up, with a lots of shiny newly-exposed and/or roughed-up aluminum showing and some significant deformation. The placement *did* hold a significant amount of force before failing: pulling my belayer a bit off the ground, tightening the knot, and rotating me into a sitting position (so I ended up with a huge purple bruise on my ass for the next couple weeks). Also: aside from the bruise, I had zero injuries, which isn't very consistent with decking straight onto ones's tush from 15ish feet without _something_ absorbing most of the force along the way. I've written this off as mostly just a bad placement + learning experience (next time: just use a crashpad that close to the ground, or just use a bigger piece even if it fills up a nice hold); my only lingering doubts come from: - on TR inspection the crack I'd placed it in wasn't obviously bad wrt sizing/orientation, and - the failure mode didn't really match my understanding of how cams work: I'd expected a failure to either (a) hold a negligible amount of force before popping due to a failure to grab the sides of the crack; or (b) fail due to mushrooming or rotation, rather than what appears to be a mostly straight-out pull. Could just be an issue with my expectations, especially as the forces involved may well have approached the cam's rating.

on a fall on the first piece its very possible you exceeded the cams rating on the yellow X4 (6 KN) ... of course its also possible the cam walked/rotated as you climbed past it as well

theres a reason i like to use nuts when possible for small gear ... for example the gold walnut/offset (same size as the yellow x4/zero/friend) is rated to 12 KN ... at that point its a matter of proper placement and the rock not breaking ... not about worrying about whether the gear rating will be exceeded (there are exceptions but thats a different thread drift)

bottom line for micro placements ... its a good idea to get in a nut every now and then ... and if yr gonna whip over and over again .... replacing a nut is much cheaper than a cam

the thing ive mentioned is that i see quite a few folks on da intrawebs ask "why buy the small C4/friends/DMM when i can get fancy X4s which have narrower head width?"

those "workhorse" cams are often passively rated ... and some like the DMM/friends are rated PASSIVELY to 9-11 KN even in the smallest sizes ... the camalots especially have loose tolerances as stated ... those suckers will take abuse all day long and laugh right back at you

of course the tradeoff is in flexibility and headwidth ... but as said before, and meaning no insult to anyone here, the "workhorse" cams you can get away with a lot sometimes because of the strength and passive rating ... many folks use em as brainless plug and pray pieces

note that the OP says he whipped 10+ times on the same placement on the small blue camalot and it was just peachy (same rating but passively rated)

;)

Lucker!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Healyje wrote:Look, on several forums you have expended pretty much more effort than anyone I've run across over the years attempting to establish a reputation as an intraweb 'expert' and with mixed results at best. There is no climbing world where your numericality, testing and endless speculation around device / rope impact loading on top pieces will ever be more than an academic exercise.

Hawties, whippahs etc etc...

T Roper wrote: Hawties, whippahs etc etc...

over and over and over and over again....... cut & paste the same old german cut sheets over and over and over again......post the same 4 tired pics over and over and over again. The brassie with the frayed wire, how many more times bearfuckahh??

edit ;) ;) ;)

Glenn Schuler wrote: over and over and over and over again....... cut & paste the same old german cut sheets over and over and over again......post the same 4 tired pics over and over and over again. The brassie with the frayed wire, how many more times bearfuckahh?? edit ;) ;) ;)

h8tahs ....

zzzzzzzz

;)

Glenn Schuler wrote: over and over and over and over again....... cut & paste the same old german cut sheets over and over and over again......post the same 4 tired pics over and over and over again. The brassie with the frayed wire, how many more times bearfuckahh?? edit ;) ;) ;)

"Internet expert" is a thankless job. Do you have any idea how much time it takes to scour Google looking for climbing related test information?

Can't believe I read all that, but I think I'm going to:
1. Buy .3/.4 C4's now and use those as my go to pieces, and
2. Try and convince someone to take whips while I'm hip belaying, and vice versa.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: "Internet expert" is a thankless job. Do you have any idea how much time it takes to scour Google looking for climbing related test information?

not as much time it takes to troll and post ghey pics on an intrawebz climbing forum i bet ... ill defer to yr expertise on that regard !!!

were only at 6 pages ...

but on a more serious note yr statement about X4s being sold more is flawed ... the c4s in the current iteration have been sold the last few years and are the most common cam in north america ... even the small sizes are very common

you dont hear tons of tales of them breaking apart ... and as stated several of these "broken" x4 stories start with "and ive whipped on the c4 in the same exact placement many times"

heres the infamous "pulled 3 x4s and decked" example from last year ....

I don't believe this has been brought up before but I have attempted this route previously with C4 Camalots. Same exact gear placements, just with C4 cams. Each piece was taken on and the first piece that pulled this most recent time (.4) was actually fallen on (7-8ft) and it did not pull or get damaged. Again, I am fully aware there is still room for human error here but it sure does make me think.

mountainproject.com/v/accid…

When you have Chinese children that dont climb make your cams you must understand the risk involved.

T Roper wrote:When you have Chinese children that dont climb make your cams you must understand the risk involved.

quoted for posterity ...

U LACISTS PLICK !!!

;)

Kyle Willis wrote:2. Try and convince someone to take whips while I'm hip belaying, and vice versa.

Yep, as bomb and reliable as any device, five minute lesson the next time I'm in Vegas, and I'd be happy to take the dives. It's actually pretty fucking hilarious that now people think you need devices to belay safely; another decade or two and they'll outlaw ATCs as 'unsafe'. Crikey, I've got to get busy on my iBelay device and app...

bearbreeder wrote: not as much time it takes to troll and post ghey pics on an intrawebz climbing forum i bet ... ill defer to yr expertise on that regard !!! were only at 6 pages ... but on a more serious note yr statement about X4s being sold more is flawed ... the c4s in the current iteration have been sold the last few years and are the most common cam in north america ... even the small sizes are very common you dont hear tons of tales of them breaking apart ... and as stated several of these "broken" x4 stories start with "and ive whipped on the c4 in the same exact placement many times" heres the infamous "pulled 3 x4s and decked" example from last year .... I don't believe this has been brought up before but I have attempted this route previously with C4 Camalots. Same exact gear placements, just with C4 cams. Each piece was taken on and the first piece that pulled this most recent time (.4) was actually fallen on (7-8ft) and it did not pull or get damaged. Again, I am fully aware there is still room for human error here but it sure does make me think. mountainproject.com/v/accid…

Are you saying the X4 has a design flaw or are you trying to draw a correlation between the publicly reported failures and design with out committing to a specific position? You sure have a lot to say without saying much of anything at all.

If we're hypothesizing about the failure rate (be it QC or design) then it still comes back to quantity in the field versus demographic of users. Since we don't know the production or actual failure numbers it is impossible to conclusively state a specific failure rate. It is true that there is a lot of reports of pulled X4's (proportionately to other cams on the market) but does that correlate to design limitations or the product and user type? Lab testing does not indicate, from what I have seen, that X4's perform worse than any other small cam on the market. However, what we do know is that BD has sold a large amount of X4's recently and most of the users are probably newer buyers (because existing small cam owners are less likely to buy than new buyers).

In short, this thread is almost entirely chaff without any wheat. Get back to me when we have conclusive data instead of anecdotes.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Are you saying the X4 has a design flaw or are you trying to draw a correlation between the publicly reported failures and design with out committing to a specific position? You sure have a lot to say without saying much of anything at all. If we're hypothesizing about the failure rate (be it QC or design) then it still comes back to quantity in the field versus demographic of users. Since we don't know the production or actual failure numbers it is impossible to conclusively state a specific failure rate. It is true that there is a lot of reports of pulled X4's (proportionately to other cams on the market) but does that correlate to design limitations or the product and user type? Lab testing does not indicate, from what I have seen, that X4's perform worse than any other small cam on the market. However, what we do know is that BD has sold a large amount of X4's recently and most of the users are probably newer buyers (because existing small cam owners are less likely to buy than new buyers). In short, this thread is almost entirely chaff without any wheat. Get back to me when we have conclusive data instead of anecdotes.

endless useless speculation there buddy on yr part ... pot calling the kettle black =P

no what im saying is that the current generation camalot have been out for how many years now and are likely the most used cam in north america ... and overall we dont hear of that many issues with them

but you go off and claim that in the last year theyve made more X4s in a year than theyve made aliens in 10 without any data or numbers to back it up

your original quote ...

I'd love to know BD's sales numbers for the X4. I bet BD makes more X4's in one year than CCH made in 10. Statistically and demographically you're more likely to hear about X4 failures than other units.


so ... by yr own logic ... Statistically and demographically you're more likely to hear about C4 failures than other units.

as to your "lab testing" ... as some folks are so often reminded on this thread, the lab isnt the real world

in short yr whinning about "speculation" while making baseless speculation yourself without any actual numbers or experience by yr own admission

Get back to me when we have actual sales data instead pure speculation of "sales" numbers


as to x4s being "newb cams" ... most the folks i know with them are from decently to very experienced, and many of the MPers with em here seem to be pretty experienced

have you even whipped on an X4 bro??? (im saying this nicely and in jest =P)

;)

bearbreeder wrote: I'd love to know BD's sales numbers for the X4. I bet BD makes more X4's in one year than CCH made in 10. Statistically and demographically you're more likely to hear about X4 failures than other units. so ... by yr own logic ... Statistically and demographically you're more likely to hear about C4 failures than other units.

Ok, slight dose of reality here.

In 1999 and 2000, I worked at CCH. You can all stop panicking, I pretty much deburred pieces and tried not to get bit by Dave's dogs.

Based on the parts I sandblasted or polished, we weekly had enough to supply to make about 100 cams a week maybe more. Some weeks were extra heavy and some were light. Every single week we used every part up, so we weren't building up a cache to make more later.

Rei was the big one then but there was a lot of demand to all shops. It was crazy, Dave was the manufacturer and distributer, so the small shop that ordered 20 cams got a hand addressed box from him, then REI got a hand addressed box with 200 units.

So, lets be conservative, 4800 Aliens a year (they did ramp up after I was gone, also due to REI). Their heyday was 1990-2003, so that's 62,400 aliens.

I bet close to 100,000 total aliens in the company history.

So BD made 100,000 X4's last year? That's a lot of X4's.

Edited due to epic math fail.

nicelegs wrote:So, lets be conservative, 4800 Aliens a year

Seriously???? I always thought Nadia's asking price for the company was high, but if what you say is true that's RIDICULOUS!!!

Which is to say I recall their wholesale price being around the ~$45-50 mark. Even at 6000 Aliens a year that's only $300k in sales for a company at the time with a /severely/ tarnished image and a design who's key patent was about to expire. Mind you, that figure is ignoring COGS, which I figure was on the order of ~$25-30 per cam. As I recall, she was asking $2million.

Wow. I wonder what Fixe ultimately paid?

nicelegs wrote: Ok, slight dose of reality here. In 1999 and 2000, I worked at CCH. You can all stop panicking, I pretty much deburred pieces and tried not to get bit by Dave's dogs. Based on the parts I sandblasted or polished, we weekly had enough to supply to make about 100 cams a week maybe more. Some weeks were extra heavy and some were light. Every single week we used every part up, so we weren't building up a cache to make more later. Rei was the big one then but there was a lot of demand to all shops. It was crazy, Dave was the manufacturer and distributer, so the small shop that ordered 20 cams got a hand addressed box from him, then REI got a hand addressed box with 200 units. So, lets be conservative, 4800 Aliens a year (they did ramp up after I was gone, also due to REI). Their heyday was 1990-2003, so that's 62,400 aliens. I bet close to 100,000 total aliens in the company history. So BD made 100,000 X4's last year? That's a lot of X4's. Edited due to epic math fail.

Yeah, that sounds right. BD was probably 50:1 with CCH back in the late 90's/early '00's and the outdoor industry has grown exponentially since. BD did $175M wholesale total (international and domestic) outdoor industry sales in 2012. Feel free to look at BD's financials, they're public.

Think about it for a second, BD released the X4 line in 2013 and every climbing shop in the US (and most of the free world) carries them now. 100K units a year is probably conservative.

Aric Datesman wrote: Seriously???? I always thought Nadia's asking price for the company was high, but if what you say is true that's RIDICULOUS!!! Which is to say I recall their wholesale price being around the ~$45-50 mark. That's only $240k in sales for a company at the time with a /severely/ tarnished image and a design who's key patent was about to expire. As I recall, she was asking $2million. Wow. I wonder what Fixe ultimately paid?

I was a student at the time (funny, I'm a student now), it's possible that he dropped a lot more boxes than I saw in the evenings when I showed up.

Aric, you and I both know this well. Logic does not factor in with any iteration of CCH business model, so don't act so surprised.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Think about it for a second, BD released the X4 line in 2013 and every climbing shop in the US (and most of the free world) carries them now. 100K units a year is probably conservative.

Ray, I don't have numbers to dispute you but I reckon that BD sells 100 clothing units to every cam. Maybe more.

Aric, forgot to add, at the time wholesale for an Alien was $28.

nicelegs wrote: I was a student at the time (funny, I'm a student now), it's possible that he dropped a lot more boxes than I saw in the evenings when I showed up. Aric, you and I both know this well. Logic does not factor in with any iteration of CCH business model, so don't act so surprised.

He very well may have. In a long thread here ages ago I did a manufacturing cost analysis for Aliens and IIRC backed into their likely yearly sales volume by way of wholesale price and estimated COGS (based on my experience in manufacturing). I seem to recall my result being much, much higher. Guess I should go dig up that thread....

On a side note, from what I've been told by other former employees of CCH I strongly suspect cams were not Dave's only source of income, which might explain the lack of logic on several levels.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent from the X4 thing....