Rescue in Eldo last night

wankel7 wrote:You don't have to turn off a phone to save the battery. Just placing it into airplane mode and closing all of the apps down should extend the battery life. Keep the phone in your pocket over night so it doesn't get cold. On an Android phone turning off data can also strech battery life.

All good tips. You may also want to disable location completely (not just GPS). Airplane mode doesn't always shut off location, at least on Android.

With location off and in airplane mode, my phone will sleep for weeks on one charge.

In fact, booting my phone usually takes a percent or three of juice anyway, so a deep airplane sleep might be the best possible choice...

(All this goes out the window if you have some cruddy app wasting your battery in the background)

Rick McL wrote:This observation is not meant to offend or insult. I am finding this thread interesting and I just want all of us to see the various opinions. So here it goes: Does it seem that there is a movement away from RMR/SAR rescuing people who are injured and, instead, rescuing people who are not smart? Thoughts?

Interesting thought. I wouldn't think fewer people are getting injured in the back country. But it seems very likely that in the past decade (maybe two, or even three), more people lacking knowledge or basic survival skills, or even practical common sense are venturing into places and situations for which they are simply unprepared. As wilderness persuits have become more mainstream and the false security of cell phones has become stronger, as generation "me" has grown old enough to go out alone, with the idea that nothing bad will happen to them and that they're winners just for trying, I can easily see how SAR get more "please come find me!" calls.

This thread has truly made me think about how I deal with my surroundings. When I travel somewhere, whether by car, bicycle, public transportation or by foot, I have always studied the route in advance. I like to know where I'm going and what's adjacent to my route. With climbing I have blinders on. How do I get to the crag, how do I identify the route, and how do I get back down. And that's all. Nothing about the area surround the crag I'm climbing at, no topo of alternate trails out or natural features. It may be because I always go with people who know the area, but that's a bad practice. I wonder how many others do the same, get so focused on the climbing that they forget they're out in the middle of nowhere.

Mr. Kelman (rob.calm),
Your level headed and objective observations are on the mark. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Hopefully it's being absorbed.
I'd be honored to tie in with you anytime.
Cheers,
-R

Juston wrote:...That is why there's a full time rescue team in Chamonix (one example)....

Full-time paid rescue team, and you will be charged accordingly for the rescue, out of pocket or through your insurance. In some ways I don't think this is such a bad idea.

I don't get this selfish, entitled attitude that it's perfectly fine to waste SAR volunteer time for non-essential rescues caused by lack of preparedness and personal responsibility.

Here are my 2 cents and observations. From my house in Eldo I often see the headlamps of climbers coming down the east slabs(I believe I even saw these guys in that area on that nite). We always call it NITE patrol and it is actually a time honored tradition in the climbing world. When I see the headlamps going off route I know they are lost and heading into a long nite out. I have seen folks out there just bunker down and spend the nite waiting for day light to guide them down. This has happened more than once and will not be the last. If they have headlamps I know they are somewhat prepared to be out in the NITE! I can understand the reasoning to be worried that ones cell phone might die before you get a chance to call for help as mine almost died once while skiing in the backcountry and I needed to call for a rescue...my partner had broken his femur and we were out there in a full snowstorm (thanks RMR) As someone had mentioned earlier these guys could have called a friend, explained the situation and made a set time in the morning for said friend to call for a rescue if they HAD NOT heard from them. They then should have settled in for the nite (another time honored tradition) and waited for day light. It was not that cold that nite and the skies were clear. But ultimately it was their call to make the decision as I wasn't there. One thing that does stand out to me is Embarrassed Guy claims that he didn't think they could even make it out even in day light. Really??? I guess if you hadnt had much prior exposure to being in the outdoors this might be so.
I would also like to point out that these guys and the rest of us are very fortunate to have a rescue group like RMR available to us. They go above and beyond with there services. If this call was taken by YOSAR in Yosemite they would have questioned the party on their status,location,clothing,water, food, and looked at the weather report and ultimately told these guys to stay put and and Yosar would come up and get them......in the morning. Glad everything turned out okay and thanks again to RMR for providing great service no matter what the circumstances. Sorry for the long post.

rob.calm wrote: Historical comment: The two legends were Pat Ament and Larry Dalke, who were 16-years old at the time. The rescuers were Layton Kor and Jack Turner. It was in January 1962. As I recall, the accident of one of the two climbers near the Cinch Crack Boulder occurred in wet weather. I don’t have direct knowledge of the event, but after news of the accident occurred, I received a couple of emails asking me if I had been hurt. Friends heard the description of two old climbers having an accident near the Cinch Crack and my partners and I matched the demographic profile of the injured. This was certainly on my mind when I set up the rappel above the Boulder. Rob.calm

Perhaps you're talking about some other entry in this thread, pardon me if so. If you were talking about what I mentioned - it absolutely was at the chockstone on hawk eagle in Eldorado, the conditions were ideal. I was one of the first responders. My point is that even with a competent party in daylight, stuff happens there.

rob.calm wrote: Historical comment: The two legends were Pat Ament and Larry Dalke, who were 16-years old at the time. The rescuers were Layton Kor and Jack Turner. It was in January 1962. As I recall, the accident of one of the two climbers near the Cinch Crack Boulder occurred in wet weather. I don’t have direct knowledge of the event, but after news of the accident occurred, I received a couple of emails asking me if I had been hurt. Friends heard the description of two old climbers having an accident near the Cinch Crack and my partners and I matched the demographic profile of the injured. This was certainly on my mind when I set up the rappel above the Boulder. Rob.calm

You received email in 1962?

csproul wrote: You received email in 1962?

He was talking about a separate incident, wiseguy.

Rocky_Mtn_High wrote:I have to admit, I'm a bit surprised about the variety of opinions expressed in this thread regarding when to call for rescue. I always thought it was pretty much understood that calling SAR is an absolute last resort unless you are dealing with potential or actual serious injury. I hope that if I were in their situation -- i.e. not stranded on a cliff and with enough clothing to survive the night (which was cold but not sub-freezing) -- I would have used my phone not to call SAR but to let my wife know they I was going to spend the night with someone else, cuddle up together with him on our rope, and find our way down in the morning.

+1

And as SteveS noted about YOSAR, RMR should follow suit in these types of "help me it's dark out" calls. They should have told these guys to hunker down, sit tight, and they'd be up at daybreak.

There have been a lot of good comments here just on this page. Steve, Rocky, Rob, Buff... and I agree Fossana: "I don't get this selfish, entitled attitude that it's perfectly fine to waste SAR volunteer time for non-essential rescues caused by lack of preparedness and personal responsibility."

Why don't people think about the potential consequences when calling for rescue in situations like this? Yeah, rescuers always face dangers, but what if RMR resources are tied up in your non-essential rescue, and in the meantime there is a real life threatening situation in need of these guys elsewhere?

I sit here now and I think what if my partner, or my wife, or even I... was lying up say in the Flatirons somewhere injured and bleeding with the clock ticking... meanwhile RMR resources are tied up in one of these types of "false" rescues?

Dag people. Be safe out there, be prepared, be self sufficient, be resourceful, and have some common sense. And don't call for rescue unless there's an injury or it's truly a life threatening situation. Save these valuable resources like RMR for when the shit truly did hit the fan, yours or someone else's.

Mark Wyss wrote: I was thinking the exact same thing. So may arrogant pricks on this thread, Rick the most recent one to crawl out of the cracks. The amount of monday morning quarterbacking going on here is laughable. I'm glad you guys got out ok and learned from your mistakes. Weather you should/shouldn't have called for SAR, you're a better climber today after the experience. Props for the honest account of what happened that night as well.

What say Mark? Though his insult was directed at me PERSONALLY, it would seem his insult is to all contributors of this forum that have the general opinion that calling SAR because of a climbing parties poor planning or lack of smarts is wrong, endangers rescuers lives unnecessarily, and is an inappropriate diversion of SAR resources away from a possible real emergency.
Any change of heart Mark?
I'm neither arrogant nor a prick, and I don't live in a crack.
I'm just a climber discussing a subject with respect and humor.

Frosty Weller wrote: +1 And as SteveS noted about YOSAR, RMR should follow suit in these types of "help me it's dark out" calls. They should have told these guys to hunker down, sit tight, and they'd be up at daybreak. There have been a lot of good comments here just on this page. Steve, Rocky, Rob, Buff... and I agree Fossana: "I don't get this selfish, entitled attitude that it's perfectly fine to waste SAR volunteer time for non-essential rescues caused by lack of preparedness and personal responsibility." Why don't people think about the potential consequences when calling for rescue in situations like this? Yeah, rescuers always face dangers, but what if RMR resources are tied up in your non-essential rescue, and in the meantime there is a real life threatening situation in need of these guys elsewhere? I sit here now and I think what if my partner, or my wife, or even I... was lying up say in the Flatirons somewhere injured and bleeding with the clock ticking... meanwhile RMR resources are tied up in one of these types of "false" rescues? Dag people. Be safe out there, be prepared, be self sufficient, be resourceful, and have some common sense. And don't call for rescue unless there's an injury or it's truly a life threatening situation. Save these valuable resources like RMR for when the shit truly did hit the fan, yours or someone else's.

I have avoided chiming in on this thread, but I must say that I agree. Calling SAR is an absolute last resort and an admission of complete failure. Personally, if I were to call SAR, I would seriously reconsider what I was doing. Every single decision I make when climbing revolves around being self reliant, and when I choose to go lighter i accept an increased level of risk.

I agree with what was said earlier, if you aren't willing to spend a night out, perhaps multipitch climbing isn't for you.

However, on a positive note, I think the rescuees did a good job of admitting their mistakes and providing a good analysis for the group. Don't take this too personally or get bogged down in the internet drama....Just learn from this and climb on!

I Man wrote: I have avoided chiming in on this thread, but I must say that I agree. Calling SAR is an absolute last resort and an admission of complete failure. Personally, if I were to call SAR, I would seriously reconsider what I was doing. Every single decision I make when climbing revolves around being self reliant, and when I choose to go lighter i accept an increased level of risk. I agree with what was said earlier, if you aren't willing to spend a night out, perhaps multipitch climbing isn't for you. However, on a positive note, I think the rescuees did a good job of admitting their mistakes and providing a good analysis for the group. Don't take this too personally or get bogged down in the internet drama....Just learn from this and climb on!

Well Said "I Man".

And, I agree with Mark that it took guts for "embarrassed Gumby" to admit his mistakes on MP. Gumby's a stand up guy that will be a better climber for it.

Slightly off topic and NOT directed at any particular individual in this thread, but is there something about trad climbing that brings out the "know it all" in some people?

Yep, it's the climbing part.

Mike McHugh wrote: Perhaps you're talking about some other entry in this thread, pardon me if so. If you were talking about what I mentioned - it absolutely was at the chockstone on hawk eagle in Eldorado, the conditions were ideal. I was one of the first responders. My point is that even with a competent party in daylight, stuff happens there.

Thank you for the correction. By the time the information got to me it was that I had broken a leg on the big boulder at Hawk Eagle Ridge and that it was raining. As I mentioned in my posting, I didn’t have firsthand knowledge of the accident, and, obviously, I knew it wasn’t me. It was easy to believe it was raining since it was hard to imagine under ideal conditions either of the climbers involved having trouble at that spot given their capabilities. Another case,as you point out, of stuff happening even to the competent.

Rob.calm

Rocky_Mtn_High wrote: I would have used my phone not to call SAR but to let my wife know they I was going to spend the night with someone else, cuddle up together with him on our rope, and find our way down in the morning.

And what would you have told your wife, if your partner were a woman?

rob.calm

Mark E Dixon wrote:Slightly off topic and NOT directed at any particular individual in this thread, but is there something about trad climbing that brings out the "know it all" in some people?

I just spent a week playing with my widgets and I want to tell everyone how to do it.

I don't have any useful advice on this thread. My first multi-pitch route was Weissner on Devils Tower, it's basically two pitches and scrambling. It took all day. My second was Petit and it was like 20 hours. Keep at it OP. Speed is often safety and strength often equals speed. You'll get better.

You've been humble enough. At this point the people who keep harping on you just want to be irate, they aren't irate, they just want to be. I suggest you send each of them a close-up picture of your asshole. Give them something to be mad about.

fossana wrote: Full-time paid rescue team, and you will be charged accordingly for the rescue, out of pocket or through your insurance. In some ways I don't think this is such a bad idea. I don't get this selfish, entitled attitude that it's perfectly fine to waste SAR volunteer time for non-essential rescues caused by lack of preparedness and personal responsibility.

The problem with this approach is that people will buy rescue insurance and set off with a minimum of gear, thinking that as long as they've paid for the rescue insurance they might as well cash in on it, and expecting to just call for a rescue if things don't quite go as planned. I prefer the YOSAR approach of evaluating the incident afterwards, and fining the parties involved an amount equal to the cost of the rescue for "creating a hazardous situation" if the party is judged to have acted irresponsibly. This motivates people to plan ahead and take responsibility for their actions without creating the "I paid for this service, I'm going to use it" attitude that can arise from the rescue insurance/paid rescue team scenario.

I also like the YOSAR approach of evaluating the situation by phone or by sending a one or two man advance team to the scene, and deciding to wait until daylight to perform a rescue if that's appropriate. Teaches the rescued party a little self-reliance and foresight, reduces the chances of injuries to the rescue team, and reduces the chance that the rescue team will be unable to respond to a truly serious emergency because they're tied up on a relatively trivial matter.

rob.calm wrote: Thank you for the correction. By the time the information got to me it was that I had broken a leg on the big boulder at Hawk Eagle Ridge and that it was raining. As I mentioned in my posting, I didn’t have firsthand knowledge of the accident, and, obviously, I knew it wasn’t me. It was easy to believe it was raining since it was hard to imagine under ideal conditions either of the climbers involved having trouble at that spot given their capabilities. Another case,as you point out, of stuff happening even to the competent. Rob.calm

Likewise, thanks for the history lesson (and your thoughtful comments, as per usual) - I always manage to forget which two of the legends were rescued by Mr. Kor.

On a side note, I wonder if those of us who have been rescued (or perform rescues) are more likely to extend an olive branch to our newly minted brethren in mountainous ass-kickings. It's hard to be a cocky bastard or bastardette after getting bailed out.