Belaying with doubles
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Hey all! |
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That's a common and perfectly good way to bring up two followers at once. There are some issues to be aware of:
Edit: I see that you wrote "belaying" and not "belayed". I guess you could have each follower belay on one strand, but why? Things could get exciting if you fall and both your belayers get lifted up and potentially into each other... |
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Mathias wrote:Hey all! Just wondering, if there are two followers, is there any reason not to have them both belaying on one rope each? I can't see how it'd cause a problem but just wanted to ask some people with experience.You mean like when there is one person leading, the two back at the anchor are each independently belaying the leader from separate strands? Doesn't sound intrinsically bad (offers some redundancy), but it comes at a cost. The first cost is that the two belayers need to pay attention to one another to stay in sync, which seems more complicated than just paying attention to the climber. Second, if you're multi-pitching it, having a single person belaying means the other person can be eating / drinking / taking butt shots or whatever. Seems like the independent belayer thing would be relatively slower since additional time would need to be taken to eat / drink / etc. |
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That is a perfectly acceptable way to do it. On hard leads they can micro manage each rope better than a single belayer can. Provided they can both know how to belay properly. It's a good solution to a team with second that don't have a lot of practice belaying with doubles. |
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Another advantage to having only one follower belaying is that the other follower is free to help manage any tangles in the rope, while the belayer remains 100% on task. |
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All good thoughts. |
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As far as protecting traverses for two followers goes, can I just add a second biner to the slings, rather than use two slings? Seems like it'd be fine, though I don't expect much traversing on the first outing with doubles and two followers. |
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Mathias wrote:As far as protecting traverses for two followers goes, can I just add a second biner to the slings, rather than use two slings? Seems like it'd be fine, though I don't expect much traversing on the first outing with doubles and two followers.no just clip both ropes into each biner. |
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Mathias wrote:Hey all! Just wondering, if there are two followers, is there any reason not to have them both belaying on one rope each? I can't see how it'd cause a problem but just wanted to ask some people with experience.I do this alot and it's really standard. I've looked at the setup of the plate (I use the kong GiGi) when I was first learning it, and it didn't seem dangerous in any reasonable situation. I wouldn't take up a party of 3 if anyone was marginal on the route and needed aid, etc. Assuming this, it's alot faster than one at a time. |
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remember that the friction for lead belaying on a single thin rope is quite a bit lower than using them as twins or doubles where yr more likely to grasp both strands in a fall |
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I hadn't considered using a second biner on the belay devices, but that's a very good idea. It would need to be a match pair of lockers, right? |
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One belayer on each rope is the deluxe set-up from the leading perspective, although it may not be the most efficient use of team power on multipitch routes of any length. There are no coordination issues unless the leader needs to be lowered; other than that, if each belayer just pays attention to the leader and does what has to be done, everything will be perfect. |
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Mathias wrote:I hadn't considered using a second biner on the belay devices, but that's a very good idea. It would need to be a match pair of lockers, right? I'm also wondering more generally about one person belaying on doubles: If red was clipped last, the breaking hand focus would be on red with minimal pressure on blue, correct? And then if blue is clipped next slack would be fed out only on blue for the clip, then the breaking focus would shift to blue, yes? Then ideally, slack would be taken in on blue as the climber moved up to the placement, but fed out on red. Then as the climber moves above the placement, they're fed out together? If the climber has clipped one rope twice or more in succession, the focus on breaking with the other rope would drop substantially wouldn't it?the lockers should be matching as to taking in and giving out at the same time ... IMO its a bit overated the rope clipped to the top piece is the one that matters ... im absolutely fine with the belayer feeding a bit more slack on the bottom rope and focusing on the top rope ... that way it doesnt have to be a totally simultaneous process for braking simply grip both strands solidly and bring yr hand down to yr hip ... my suggestion is that you get one person to do the belaying on each pitch ... and have both belay you over the climb ... as the second "belayer" simply managers the rope, youll be backed up as long as you instruct them properly that way they both get experience belaying on halves on something you wont fall on anyways and if yr worried or if theres any pitch where the follower may take a swing fall, use em as twins ;) |
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Thanks for the replies, everyone. rgold and bearbreeder, you are fountains of knowledge, as per usual. |
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Making the loops shorter as you progress is advisable. |
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Mathias wrote:Thanks for the replies, everyone. rgold and bearbreeder, you are fountains of knowledge, as per usual. I could start a new thread about this, but as it gets even more complicated with doubles or twins, I'd really appreciate some advice for stacking rope when belaying a follower. I've tried stacking on top on the section of rope I tie in with, but it still leads to issues when it comes to feeding back out, this past saturday it happened when swinging leads. Maybe making each loop slightly shorter than the last would work better?For swing leads stack the could in progressively shorter lengths. Lately I've been coiling in a different manner. Provided there are no real obstacles directly below the belay. Lower out a loop of rope so it's just above the obstacle below you, maximum of 5 meters down. The a knot on a bite in the rope and clip it into a spare biner. Send down another loop slightly shorter and make another knot, clipping it into the same biner. A single biner can easily hold 4 loops. Continue with a second biner until all the for is up. Use a 3rd if needed. This only works when you have clean rock below you, so adjust as needed. It does make the belay way more comfortable and route easier to manage. If you're block leading do the same thing but make each progressive loop longer. Once the partner is at the belay, clip the loops in a reverse order to a different biner. |
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If using double, tie a single knot with both ropes but only clip one of the loops. |
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rocknice2, that's a really cool idea. I guess if I had two follows I'd need to keep the ropes separate even if they were climbing at the same time, but maybe not. I'd been thinking about using my PAS (redundant anchor as I tie in with the rope) and keeping it loose to stack one of the ropes on, but this idea seems even better. I can hang the biners off whatever is convenient and then hand them over to the belayer(s) when I lead the next pitch. I'll try it. |
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What do you think about putting a loop in the rope to go onto the biner instead of a knot on a bight? I'm imagining a bight twisted 180 degrees and the inverted 180 degrees. So the rope would go through the biner, wrap around, through the biner again and then down. It'd take up a little more space but be easier to do one handed and easier to undo for the next belay. Thoughts? |
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Just tie the knots loosely and they are easy to untie. |