What is the correct belay command here?

A couple weeks ago we had just finished a route and were packing up our stuff and eating lunch. Meanwhile, another party showed up and began climbing the route we had just completed. The leader got up forty feet or so and then began to struggle a bit. Then, while reaching up to clip a piece he suddenly pumped out and began saying, "take, take, take!" The belayer did manage to pull in a little slack before the leader popped off, taking a twenty footer or so. He chuckled a bit and then headed back up to finish the route.

So my question: was "take" the best thing to say in this situation? Would "falling" be the better thing to say? Keep in mind that he had only 2 or 3 seconds between the time of his first warning and his fall. There wasn't time for a detailed discussion of the situation. And again, at the time of the fall he was above his last piece with about 6 feet of slack out,slack that I'm sure he wanted gone before he launched. To me, "falling" really gets the point across, but my partner thought the repeated "take" was as good or better.

Obviously you could tell the climber was getting pumped, so if the belayer was paying attention he/she should have been able to see that too and should have started to anticipate that the climber might fall. The fact the climber got anything out to warn to belay is bonus points. I don't think the leader should have to warn the belay ever the he/she is about to fall. The belayer should be a) always ready to catch a fall and b) paying attention.

That being said, I think "watch me" or "falling", if it's inevitable, might be more appropriate, but I feel that this is splitting hairs.

I think "falling" is the correct thing to say.

A good belayer will know that he needs to take in an armful of slack before putting the brake on if the situation/slack calls for it. Or, he will try to run from the base if the leader is facing a big, dangerous fall (provided it's the first pitch and the belayer isn't tied to an anchor).

Not sure what you mean by "6 feet of slack out." Does that just mean he was six feet above his last piece or there was a huge loop of rope out of the belay device?

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Edit: It seems like saying "take" in that situation would be the same as saying "Pull me off the wall!" Don't think I'd want that.

FrankPS wrote:I think "falling" is the correct thing to say. A good belayer will know that he needs to take in an armful of slack before putting the brake on if the situation/slack calls for it. Or, he will try to run from the base if the leader is facing a big, dangerous fall. Not sure what you mean by "6 feet of slack out." Does that just mean he was six feet above his last piece or there was a huge loop of rope out of the belay device? Anyway, that's my two cents.

He was clipping a piece up by his head, so he pulled up slack to clip, and then was unable to clip the piece and dropped the slack. When he dropped the slack was when he said "take take take". I think a belayer could have been understandably unsure as to what to do without specific instructions: nearly every time I've done that on the lead, I've just grabbed the slack and pulled it up and clipped, pulling it back in wouldn't necessarily have been appreciated.

Also to gretchen's comment, I actually was not aware that the guy was struggling until he said so. The belayer was fine except that he was leaving a bigger loop of slack than I like, all the way up the climb. That loop, on top of the missed clip, made for a bigger ride than necessary, IMO.

FrankPS wrote:It seems like saying "take" in that situation would be the same as saying "Pull me off the wall!" Don't think I'd want that.

That is my issue too, "take" seems like you're going to get pulled on while you're above your gear and pumped out... But maybe saying "falling" would have the same result?

In this case 'take' was the perfect command. Having just blown the clip, the climber knew there was too much slack and wanted the slack removed before the fall.

The command 'falling' is specific, but the reaction to it is ambiguous. In some situations a belayer takes in slack to remove the length of fall (as in this case). Some situation the belayer jumps or feeds out slack to reduce the impact of the fall. Since the climber knew he wanted the former reaction from his belayer, 'take' was a better command.

Optimistic wrote: So my question: was "take" the best thing to say in this situation? Would "falling" be the better thing to say?

Unless the climber was out of sight, neither. A qualified belayer will know what to do without instruction from the climber. If the belayer cant figure out what to do in that situation without instruction from the climber, s/he needs some training. If there was no risk of the climber decking, I would pull in a hand of slack but still jump to provide a soft catch. If there is no risk of decking or ledgeing-out, the incorrect answer would be to yank in a crap ton of slack and give a really hard catch (which is probably what most would do). If there is risk of decking, then a hard catch to limit the fall distance is appropriate.

"That loop, on top of the missed clip, made for a bigger ride than necessary, IMO."

Probably something like 75% of the belayers I see leave out more slack than they should, sadly. All too common. And even thought of as proper by many. Go figure.

falling ... means to give a bit of dynamic catch when yr higher up

take ... means specifically to take in the slack fast ... which can give u a hard catch

theres plenty of times when you cant see the climber

;)

I believe that "take" is the perfect command in this situation. I have said that many times and not been a victim of confusion. The opposite is true to other climbers. Take generally means two things. 1) I'm coming off the wall; 2) I'm at the anchor.

But ultimately I don't think the situation makes any difference to the command. The belayer should be able to anticipate what his partner is doing all the time, ideally. More than that though is that the belayer should react to any command the leader gives.

I find it best to test my climbing friend while on some super steep slab. I'll yell "take". If I manage to stay on it will make for more greater satisfaction of the flash. I find this is good training for both of us.

• IF* the belayer and climber are good partners and have communication, he could have called 'chicken noodle soup', as long as the belayer knew what that meant to the climber.

Falling. take. whatever. Good thing you are wrapped up in minutiae instead of having good communication. Did the climber seem annoyed at the belayer? then it probably all worked out.

• IF* the belayer and climber are good partners and have communication, he could have called 'chicken noodle soup', as long as the belayer knew what that meant to the climber.

Falling. take. whatever. Good thing you are wrapped up in minutiae instead of having good communication. Did the climber seem annoyed at the belayer? then it probably all worked out.

• IF* the belayer and climber are good partners and have communication, he could have called 'chicken noodle soup', as long as the belayer knew what that meant to the climber.

Falling. take. whatever. Good thing you are wrapped up in minutiae instead of having good communication. Did the climber seem annoyed at the belayer? then it probably all worked out.

Take is definitely a bad thing to say while above your last placement. First off, if you blow clipping your gear a bunch of slack would go to your belayer. Any competent belayer would know to take back in this slack. No need to say anything. Second, take really means pull in slack and take me tight. This is problematic when above your last piece. A tensioned rope is dangerous for a few reasons. Most obvious is it guarantees a swift swing into the wall. I'm sure many have heard that loud bang in the gym cause the guy fell after yelling take. The taut rope increases swing velocity sometimes resulting in broken ankles.

Lastly, a tensioned rope pulls out on gear. This can pop nuts and rotate cams into less than ideal angles and location. This is less of an issue if you're just a sport climber.

Falling would be fine just to alert your belayer. But with a good belayer should not be necessary.

Greg D wrote:Take is definitely a bad thing to say while above your last placement. ...... Lastly, a tensioned rope pulls out on gear. This can pop nuts and rotate cams into less than ideal angles and location.

Well you can be damn sure the rope is going to be tensioned when he falls, so if that's a concern then you've got bigger problems.

Personally I want to hear "take" if you want to hang on your last piece or if you want a hard catch. In this case I'll keep pulling slack out of the system until you're tight or until I feel you fall. I want to hear "falling" if you are falling and not in immediate danger of hitting a ledge or decking out. In this case I will take in a bit of extra slack if necessary and prepare to give a soft catch. Obviously these commands are something to go over before you begin and they are less necessary if you can see your climber.

bearbreeder wrote:...the short and sweet answer...

Thank you

To me... "falling" means brace for impact. The climber should already be on break, with a ready stance being held by the belayer... However, extra heads up, to situational catching... i.e is a dynamic belay required,,, should the belayer be backing up [to chew up slack in the line] etc..
This being said, these things should be a revolving door in the belayers head as they should be completed with or without the "falling" command, but any extra preperation as opposed to reaction time is warranted.
"Take" means I have at least some time, even seconds, get rid of this slack.,..
The climber here being pumped, realizing things are going to suck, gives belayer a second or so to "take" and eat up some of that slack to minimize forces of the impending fall.
Saying "falling here" I will NOT take in slack as it involves moving the rope and not simply braking. sounds like the climber saying "take" was the correct move, (to me...).

I think the correct command would be "WATCH THE FUCKING ROPE!!!!!!!!!!"

tenpins wrote:*IF* the belayer and climber are good partners and have communication, he could have called 'chicken noodle soup', as long as the belayer knew what that meant to the climber. Falling. take. whatever. Good thing you are wrapped up in minutiae instead of having good communication. Did the climber seem annoyed at the belayer? then it probably all worked out.

Yes, for the first time, minutiae are being discussed on mountainproject.com, and it's all my fault. Adam has eaten the fruit, we will be cast from the garden.

So what you're saying is that each climbing team should develop their own vocabulary for belaying commands? Should they do this for each pair of climbers? A new vocabulary each day so that enemy teams will not be able to decipher belay communications, perhaps?

tenpins wrote:*IF* the belayer and climber are good partners and have communication, he could have called 'chicken noodle soup', as long as the belayer knew what that meant to the climber. Falling. take. whatever. Good thing you are wrapped up in minutiae instead of having good communication. Did the climber seem annoyed at the belayer? then it probably all worked out.

Yes, for the first time, minutiae are being discussed on mountainproject.com, and it's all my fault. Adam has eaten the fruit, we will be cast from the garden.

So what you're saying is that each climbing team should develop their own vocabulary for belaying commands? Should they do this for each pair of climbers? A new vocabulary each day so that enemy teams will not be able to decipher belay communications, perhaps?

bearbreeder wrote:falling ... means to give a bit of dynamic catch when yr higher up

"Falling"means just that and only that; nothing about it implies anything whatsoever about the type of 'catch'.

How a belayer responds depends on whether there is line-of-sight, an understanding of the leader's position and circumstance, and their ability and experience level. In this case the leader was likely concerned about excessive slack between themselves and the belayer, wanted it taken up, and shouldn't have needed to say anything at all if their belayer was attentive and knew what they were doing.

In the case of a leader who's out of sight, don't screw around or try to get fancy, just lock that puppy up.

For what it is worth, if I was pumped out above gear, knew I was about to fall, and knew there was 6' of slack in the rope, I would likely say "take!" also. If the belayer takes up too much slack and pulls me off... that is where I was going anyway. I feel like any belayer I would trust belaying me on lead would be paying enough attention to know what is going on there. There is a big difference between a casual "take" and a nervous "take! take! take!"