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Carabiners for Alpine Draws
Read wrote:The hammock post is amusing its like when someone comes into my shop with a destroyed bike and say they were "just riding along".Or when the fork seals on month old Gixxer 1000 leak. Dudes like I don't ride wheelies! Does the warranty cover this? |
Read wrote:I've never noticed it to be worse than any other biner. I've used them for years and myself nor any of my partners have ever felt uncomfortable using them or had any major issues. But different strokes for different folks. Just my 2centsYou may not feel uncomfortable using them now but google broken mammut moses and you may start to feel uncomfortable. No other biner comes close to breaking as frequently as the moses which is the whole reason that mammut changed the design of the wall. |
kennoyce wrote: You may not feel uncomfortable using them now but google broken mammut moses and you may start to feel uncomfortable. No other biner comes close to breaking as frequently as the moses which is the whole reason that mammut changed the design of the wall.I bought some of these recently, so I'd be interested to learn more. I found one thread on MP with a guy that did some interesting nose-hooking tests on them, and then the hammock example from above. The home tests were interesting, seeming to show nose-hooking as at least a possibility. However, he did the test with Photons, and Hotwires and said he got the same (or similar) results -- nose hooking about 50% of the time(!), with his self-admittedly not quite real climbing conditions. The hammock example must have had something else going on..even nose-hooked, the weight of someone on a hammock shouldn't be enough to do that to the biner, right? How much force CAN a nose-hooked biner withstand? Other than that I have found no problematic stories about the Moses. I'd love to read up on any more examples of this issue, but I put in a little effort and didn't find anything. |
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for those who want to understand the forces involved in a hammock hang ..., |
bearbreeder wrote:for those who want to understand the forces involved in a hammock hang ..., theultimatehang.com/hammock… to put it simply the OG rating of a carabiner should be sufficient for anything but the most extreme situations (breeding bears with oversized americans with a lot of bounce for example) however add nose hooking into the equation and youve got a biner that breaks at ~2-3 KN (200-300 KG), and deforms at less than that ... well within the real of possibility for a taut setup with fattay yankees ;)I'm not saying I don't believe you, but does nose-hooking really reduce the strength to 2-3 kN? I believe it is possible, just wondering if you've got a source. If this is true, I'd amend my last post by saying that this situation could have equally well occurred with a Photon or Hotwire, and maybe others (according to the tests I referenced earlier...here is the link to the thread. ) |
Davis Chuckenhower wrote: I'm not saying I don't believe you, but does nose-hooking really reduce the strength to 2-3 kN? I believe it is possible, just wondering if you've got a source. If this is true, I'd amend my last post by saying that this situation could have equally well occurred with a Photon or Hotwire, and maybe others (according to the tests I referenced earlier...here is the link to the thread. )BD blackdiamondequipment.com/e… UKC/DMM ukclimbing.com/news/item.ph… nose hooking is fairly rare on notched biners where the notch is minimal with the gate closed ... note that DMM (the "safest" carabiner maker) sells plenty of notched biners ... see 1:20 into this video ... youtube.com/watch?v=i2aTO7L… the mammut moses however had a very large notch even when closed ... add some 8mm mammut dyneema slings and you might have some issues ;) |
Bill Kirby wrote: Or when the fork seals on month old Gixxer 1000 leak. Dudes like I don't ride wheelies! Does the warranty cover this?Ha ha ha exactly. I'm just saying the hammock example i question. Some random dude claiming hanging his hammock broke that thing...There may be some better biner designs out there at this point but I don't think they are inherently bad biners. There is inherent risk in climbing and if you are banking your life to one piece then you hopefully have weighed out the risk to reward. I cannot think of many times where its been so sketchy or make or break that I havn't been able to make something redundant. IE a rats nest, used a locker on the end of the extended sling or clipped the racking biner and doubled up the two draw biners on the other side. |
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supertopo.com/climbers-foru…
The Setup Last Saturday, October 27th, my partner, Dave and I climbed Scheister on Sugarloaf near Lake Tahoe, CA. I had done this route almost exactly a year ago with Zander. The climb was going great until the alternative, stem finish which I had done twice before. From a large, fairly flat belay station, I climbed on top of some big blocks and clipped a bolt, which basically sits a foot or so above the edge of a wall that turns from vertical to fairly flat (maybe 20 or 30 degree slope). I used a 24” quickdraw with Mammut Moses carabiners on both sides and clipped the rope into the bottom biner. The bottom biner hangs over the edge by a few inches. From the blocks, I stemmed between two walls (pretty wide stem) and moved up until I could get my right foot high into a dish a little below and to the right of the bolt. I finished the move and then started to partially down climb the move to show Dave where to place his feet. I felt very secure with my hand on a knob and my right foot in the dish, but as I put my left foot against the back wall, I slipped. The Event My best guess is that it should have been a 3 or 4 foot fall on about 15 feet of rope. Before the fall, I was talking to Dave about foot position so he had me locked off and he was belaying me off of his harness, not directly off of the anchor. When the rope came taut, the carabiner attached to the bolt immediately broke in half. I dropped the rest of the way onto the slab near Dave. I landed on my feet and then slipped onto my rear. I came out of it relatively unharmed. I banged my wrist a little and had a cut that bled lightly to moderately and I bruised my butt and tailbone. A little shaken, we finished the climb via the 5.6 tunnel-through and walked off. Other than coming within one step of getting bit by a rattle snake, the walk out and drive home were uneventful.  also from the same thread ... A friend of mine broke the exact same carabiner not too long ago. Maybe 9 months. He had protected in the back of a chimeny and when he fell the biner hit the edge of the chimeny (it was on a long sling) and the thing just snapped in half, exactly how yours did. I might have the photos around here somewhere.. Ill take a look. Glad your ok from BD ... a nose hook breaks at 3 KN ...  youtube.com/watch?v=5ilVgLH… theres probably a reason why dead elephant updated the design to reduce the notch in the closed position ... |
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Since we are still discussing the topic of possible failures of carabiners I thought it would be prudent to highlight another issue discussed in another thread relating to alpine draws - extended slings. |
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I was using the CAMP Orbitz, but when I ordered more from gear express it turned out they were back ordered. I was, in time, offered the Photon key lock as an alternative, at a decent discount, so I took them. I really like the design. I've also got some of the Nano 23s and Photon wire gates for racking. I mainly bought them because they were in expensive and in rack-packs. I've heard the Photon wire gates can lose spring tension over time and can see that possibility, but the key lock design doesn't feel that way to me. |
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I have three of the cypher firefly screw gates - no issues so far. I actually like them more than the petzl spirit screw gates I bought for 3x as much. No experience with the wiregate versions though |
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Cypher has been around awhile, they don't appear to manufacture their own goods, but put their brand on stuff made by OE manufacturers (lots of other brands do this too, i.e. Trango). Their Firefly wire gates are nearly the same as the Trango Superfly wire gates, and the same as some ones I have from a company called "ClimbAx." They work great, I use them for both bolt and rope side of my sport draws. They are light and clip easily. I think they feel a little better in the hand than the MadRock ultralights, and the rope bearing radius might be a bit wider (just gestalt, I never measured). The Neutrinos have a better rope bearing radius than both of those options though. Out of all of those options, I would lean towards camp Nano 22 for all out weight savings and value, or DMM Spectre2 for quality. |
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I have camp nanos. Love them for racking gear and cloving cord and one strand of climbing rope is no problem. Definitely can't crowd any rope in there. |
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I'd take a serious look at the DMM Spectre 2s. While several years old they're still one of the best biners on the market in my opinion and quite cost competitive if you do a bit of shopping. 33g, 9kN open gate and what I feel is one of the best shapes around. Some biners get a bit to "Triangle" shaped to max the gate opening size or shave weight etc. This makes them tend to be less easy to handle. The Spectres are just classic asymmetric "D" shaped and have good room throughout, even in the narrow end, to accommodate the tripled up webbing of an alpine draw. Many of the lighter biners have a narrow end that's too tight for the alpine draw. |
Dylan B. wrote:(1) Has anyone ever heard of or used the "Cypher" brand? (2) While BD lists the Hotwire gate size as 25mm and the Neutrino as 22mm, holding the two side-by-side they appear to be exactly the same to me. Have they changed the size of either of them recently? (3) Is the OP Lava more-or-less the same as the Doval? Do they make Dovals anymore? I want something no smaller than a Neutrino, but much lighter than the Hotwire. I'm leaning towards the Madrock Ultralight, OP Lava or the CAMP Photon.1) I have used several cypher biners for different. Had a rack of draws with firefly biners and loved them. Size/weight ratio was great, they were really light, and super affordable. 2)BD changed the hotwire last year (at least the third design to exist under that name). The current hotwires have basically the same size/shape/cross section as a positron, just with a wire gate. The current design is definitely bigger than a neutrino. 3)Cypher is a good bet here. Loved the several I've used (especially for the price). If you have the fundage BD Oz is sweet. Same size as a neutrino, much lighter, and non-snagging nose. |
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Just wanted to add that I only have a total of 4 Petzl Anges (2 small and 2 large). |
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Post from two years ago in this same thread: Dylan B. wrote:I have all hotwires; I bought them before I knew anything at all, and I got a good deal on them. They're heavy, but handle well. I'm no badass, so the extra weight doesn't bother me too much.And now: Dylan B. wrote:I'm in the market for lighter wiregates for my alpine draws. All of my draws have two Hotwires on them, and they're beastly heavy. I don't have much budget, so I'm looking at 'biners for under $8.00 each.Everyone sees the light eventually. |
Seth Jones wrote:Trango Phase. Good size, good gate action, cheap.+100 to this. For a while I never really looked at Trango gear, considering them a "second tier" brand. Wrong move. I started updating my cam racking biners last summer and ended up goingh with the Phase. Very very impressed. A nice medium size (not tiny, not bulky), very lightweight (30 g), handles well, nice gate action, pretty wide gate opening (especially for its weight). Also: CHEAP. Retails at $6, and often can be found on sale at $5. |
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The phase has sub par open gate rating though. I consider 8kN the minimum and prefer 9kN Spectres. The Cypher echo would get my nod if looking for cheaper. It's the same as the old WC Nitro from what I can tell which was an awesome biner |
Dylan B. wrote:(2) While BD lists the Hotwire gate size as 25mm and the Neutrino as 22mm, holding the two side-by-side they appear to be exactly the same to me. Have they changed the size of either of them recently? I want something no smaller than a Neutrino, but much lighter than the Hotwire. I'm leaning towards the Madrock Ultralight, OP Lava or the CAMP Photon.The spec difference may be due to the shape of the biner and angle of gate vs. spine. A biner that is closer to an actual D shape, like the neutrino, will have the gate close to parallel with the spine of the biner. How long the gate is does not matter, it's how far it can swing out of the way when clipping that really determines how well the biner will work. Any biner with more of an angle to the nose will clip and clean better. The outline of the camp nano biner change in nose design shows this perfectly: blog.weighmyrack.com/light-… 2nd gen nanos (gate tension aside) sucked because they had a similar shape to the neutrino. The new nano with a more angled nose is MUCH easier to get on/off of slings. It might not seem like much in the store, but when you're pumped out and trying to get the biner on your piece a little less angle of your wrist really is nice. If you do much alpine or slab climbing a biner with protection on the nose to keep the gate from getting snagged is nice. I've been happy with BD OZ, good gate tension and the wire is well protected. Nose is too big for some really old pins/hangers you might find in the alpine. I tried a petzl Ange large and it was great on the gear side, but the little blob on the end of the wire can shoot a light skinny rope out if you don't pull it all the way into the basket. I heard complaints from two people saying the Ange "mysteriously unclipped" and thought it was BS, until I went to slap an 8mm half rope in there and watched it happen. Madrock ultra is a great price and handles well, can't beat that on a budget. The camp photons have REALLY soft gate tension and wires stick well out past the body of the biner. It would be really easy for the gate to be pushed open by contact with the rock. Camp nano 22s will take one clove on a 9.8 just fine. I like them for racking biners. They are a little too small and fiddly for me to want to use them on alpine draws and for the rope side though. |
