Crag Babies

Responsible parents with crag-babies are not the problem here. Babies aren't the problem. Irresponsible douche-bag parents are the problem. This post should have been titled "Douche-bag parents."

IT'S MY BIRTHRIGHT TO RAISE MY SPAWN ANY WAY I GOTDAMN PLEASE!

I PITY THE FOOL THAT DARES TO TELL ME HOW TO RAISE MY CHILLUNS!

and now back to our regularly scheduled argument....

I won't take my little kids to most crags because of too many objective dangers. I wish there were more safe places for the kids to hang while getting in a few pitches. BUT what if a crag is developed with a strict ethic of only climbing with a bunch of crag babies lying around? Would it then be in poor style to show up and send without a crag baby? Would a guy have to borrow a crag baby or two from friends or rent some on Craigslist to be legit? Or would you just have to put an asterisk next to your ascents?

If there are any women on this site looking to make crag babies, I'm accepting applications.

DoNstamos wrote:I don't have children, the old lady and I aren't in the market either, but I never mind babies at the crag or anywhere else in "nature". I feel that you're kind of a JERK if you feel more entitled to be outside at a crowded crag than said child/dog owner. Go pat your stats on a multi with a long approach and leave the closer crags to the dogs/babies, problem solved. Seriously I bet the OP complains about crowded crags on a Saturday if there's no babies/dogs present to bitch about. I think anyone enjoying the outdoors is doing a good job. Why detract from that by finding something to bitch about? I think the underlying issue may be frustration at the fact that you live in Boulder with 250,000+ people moving there per year to climb at your crag. I'm also very aware of the safety concerns stated by the OP but I really just don't care. We either share the crag or we are going to lose access more and more each year as the sport continues to grow. The argument can be made that crag baby/dog owners are the jerks but hey, I prefer not to be old man River complaining about the flaming bag of shit on my doorstep.

I agree with this. While the OP raised some valid points about safety, that's more of the parent's concern than the OP's. I do not take my kids to the crags because of those same safety reasons. Frankly, as much as I love to get out, I'm not going to put my kids at risk to do it. One interesting thing about being a parent is getting to observe how other people parent. There is definitely a continuum of how much supervisions some parents believe is needed.

My primary gripe with the OP, and I may be misreading this, is that while apparently believes that the noise that usual accompanies a crowded crag is acceptable but the noise made by crag babies is not. Inane chatter is inane chatter. It doesn't matter if it's coming from a 12 month old or a 28 yr. old. It's still noise.

I don't see how any of the dangers at the crag outweigh the dangers of putting my daughter in the car (in a car seat), and trusting the decisions of thousands of strangers driving thousand pound killing machines. In my mind, I have a lot more control over crag safety than I do over road/ travel safety... Just my personal opinion though, but I'd also be willing to wager that your children are statistically far more at risk in the car, than they are at the crag.

^^^
That may be true to an extent, but it's unavoidable that you have to put your kid in the car sometimes. You don't have to take them to the crag.

There are few sounds worse than a crying baby. I'd rather hear Ricky Martin blasted from some cheap speakers while I'm climbing than a baby crying. If you can keep the baby quiet do whatever you want. The safety issue is on the parents.

Fat Dad wrote:^^^ That may be true to an extent, but it's unavoidable that you have to put your kid in the car sometimes. You don't have to take them to the crag.

But just like putting the child in a car seat, there are safety measures that can be taken at the crag to help ensure their well being.

As the sport grows through gyms and local sport crags, it seems many newcomers view climbing as CrossFit gym—loud music, screaming, shirts off and high-fiving. Little do many of them know, traditionally climbing has been more of a wilderness adventure, more like a serene weekend hike.

But as with any activity, overcrowding and the annoyances associated with it become a real issue as the activity gains in popularity. I believe in order to continue the privilege of climbing, climbers need to be respectful--leave dogs and babies at home if they cannot behave themselves, leave the music off, dont throw beer cans everywhere, and be respectful to others. Otherwise, as these issues grow, land mangers are likely to just ban climbing all together. Land managers have little motivation to allow climbing as it is since they get nothing out of it.

Look.

If any of you need me to fight these crag-parents, or their babies, I'm available.

$13.75 an hour, of course.

Leif E wrote:Just my personal opinion though, but I'd also be willing to wager that your children are statistically far more at risk in the car, than they are at the crag.

The fallacy in your logic here is called a Base Rate Fallacy. The fact is, people ALREADY drive with their kids, in addition to driving to the crag. Comparing the risk from being in a car to the risk from being at the crag is to assume that you ONLY DO ONE OR THE OTHER. The risk from being at the crag is ADDED to the risk from being in a car. Unless you only climb OR only drive, making this comparison does not add to the argument.

The other day my dog pissed on the climbers' rope next to me, which made his baby start crying. I had to turn down my stereo to tell them to shut that thing up. The guy took both hands off his gri-gri and flipped me the double-bird. That sort of behavior is to obscene to do around my dog. I was gonna reprimand him further, but I was too drunk too stand. I mean, why is this baby-scream havin', hands-free grigri usin', vulgar douche at the crag anyway?

Fat Dad wrote:While the OP raised some valid points about safety, that's more of the parent's concern than the OP's.

Maybe in the absolute sense, but I think a baby's head being bashed-in by falling rock or gear would pretty much ruin everyone's day.

Frankly, some parents just suck at it and aren't as responsible as they should be. I still recall the time in the Gunks when an arriving parent placed their baby in a baby carrier at the base of the cliff, directly under me while I was leading. I didn't appreciate it.

Colin R wrote:Generally in agreement with the poster. I think there's something much bigger going on here though than just this one incident and that's a whole cultural shift that I see. I'm seeing parents just completely oblivious in general as to what their kids are doing or where they should be. It's as though there are no codes of conduct that anyone has to follow anywhere and yes, it's more the "adults" (should I say "Chidults") who are to blame - I never blame the kids. It's also a North American problem I find. You won't find many parents from say Asia, the Middle East or even parts of Europe tolerating their kids being completely oblivious to the world much less encouraging it as you do in North America (reflective of cultural attitudes of hyper-individuality imo). I've also been seeing a more "risque" attitude towards child safety at the gym too where by kids are running underneath me in the bouldering cave with the parents basically just casually following them. Really uncool folks. Then there's pics I've seen of pregnant women bouldering - ok routes (TR) I can understand but do these women have a clue about what impacts can do to a baby in the fetus? It's not safe, I'm sorry, do the research. They are finding now that trauma can be had in utero from impacts, etc and effect childhood development. Sad reallly.... And for the record, I'm the proud father of a 2 week old newborn and we're debating whether we should be taking him outside at all since winter is holding its grip here in Ottawa - can't imagine bringing him to the crag any time soon. Peace, -Colin

The average parent is not more oblivious to what their kids are up to. Maybe crag parents are generally counter-cultural when it comes to accepting risk for their kids.

I'd say if you want peace and quiet, get into mountaineering or climb remote trad lines. :) Sport climbing these days seems like it is neither peace nor quiet in nature. I DO feel that in a crowded area, folks should be conscious and respectful of others. Living half the time in Vegas over the last eight years, I've witnessed the Gallery's cacophony worsening every year (blaring music, spray, dogs, cig smoke, etc)....weird how on the sierra eastside, I've never experienced this in the ORG.

On a serious note, the news from the link below was incredibly sad. A father was leading and knocked a huge block on to his 5-year old daughter, crushing her skull. As an adult, we choose to climb and put ourselves at risk ...but young babies and children don't really have a choice if they are being brought to the crag and put at risk. But like other posters wrote, depends on the crag.

ig-sportklettern.com/home/i…

Was at a quiet sport crag just a few days ago and folks brought two adorable girls. It was pretty cold. One of the girls, about 4 years old (?) cried non-stop for an hour or so... repeatedly crying out, "I'm COOOOLD!!". My partner and I were a bit confounded that if a child is crying about how they are suffering, wouldn't it be better to take them out of the cold? They eventually did - and I have no doubt they were good parents and love their children. The father was really pysched about the area but ultimately, only got to get on two warm-up routes and they left to take the kids out of the cold.

On the other hand, I went with two girls to crag at the base of Lower Cathedral in the valley and one brought her newborn babe. She missed climbing and being outdoors and I don't blame her. When the baby began crying, she knew she didn't want to disturb others and instead packed up to take a hike with the baby. She also drove separately so it didn't put pressure on us to leave if she needed to. Still, a few people around gave her dirty looks and in this case, I felt defensive for her because she didn't do anything wrong and was leaving.

Every situation is different - it's all in how you take it and your expectations. If you are expecting peace and quiet at a popular crag...maybe there should be a different mindset going into it. There are obedient crag canines, there are happy crag kids. If we ever head to a popular sport crag, we have this expectation of noise and if we're not feeling it, we go deeper into the canyons on a longer approach.

It's funny how crying baby is the most annoying sound in the world until you have a baby. Then it's no big deal and you just feel bad for the embarrassed parent who's trying to hush the baby for the sake of everyone else.

1) If you have kids, be nice and don't go to crowded places and annoy people.

2) If you're climbing near kids be nice and ignore the parents and kids who are trying to get out of the house.

There, now everyone is happy. Nobody said only one of the above can be correct.

LOUD NOISES!!!

dude -- get over yourself. The world is bigger than you.

20 kN wrote: Land managers have little motivation to allow climbing as it is since they get nothing out of it.

Around here they get a ton of free policing and cleanup work done done by climbers as well as bringing tourists into town and cities that otherwise have no attractions so thats not even remotely true.

I trained my kid to untie figure eights left in the rope, top ropers beware.