Links for Bailing Sport Climbs

Jan Roestel wrote:No. Someone in Italy wrote:   "Thread the rope through the bolt hangar, lower sharp end to the ground, rap the double strand. I've done it. And I've lived to type this. People have shuddered when I told them about that. I've had THAT rope for almost 4 years, and I'm still giving it whippers (just last weekend, matter of fact). Another sport climber recommended using it, because he used it. I love challenging myself with improvising in the moment, with a high chance of dying, and surviving. People are out there aid climbing big walls, solo, and free soloing at Mt. Yosemite, The Diamond, the list goes on and on." Climbing rope manufacturers will not agree with this statement. Lucky that it worked out doesn't make it innovative.

They also won't agree that THEIR rope that THEY produced won't sever on an edge that the rope tightened on when you do everything in your ability to climb that route without error. I can't believe my rope looks as good as it does, after seeing it scrape over countless rough edges and surfaces. This sport is unforgiving, unpredictable. Y'all talk like you live the high life, the perfect life, riding a limo to the crag and having your very own butler open your door to reveal a red carpet to your route. Just--do whatcha gotta do! Sharing advice is great, but, underestimating technique that might not be the best way to do it, considering the size of your crag bag that can only hold so much, and the size of your pockets that can only afford so much gear. Simple persons have done a lot with very little! Calling me wrong for doing it the way I do it is a long shot! I'll criticize a big guy for doing it that way! I can see the rope getting stretched like a motha f***a in that hanger when he weights the rope, like a tree limb bending a LOT more when he hangs on it, than when I do!

Some hangers are actually made with a curved or rounded edge so it doesn't ding up the bolt-end carabiner of a quickdraw. The method I submitted can be used to do that safely, as well. However, I was not aware that hangers of this type existed, I was still more green than I am now, and haven't used the rope through the hanger in a long time! I've either had a bootied bail biner, or left a quickdraw with hopes that it'd be where I left it, next time I approached that crag. I'm also 145-150lbs soaking wet. I don't have a fat ass to worry about when I'm weighting stuff.

Paul Hutton wrote:Thread the rope through the bolt hangar, lower sharp end to the ground, rap the double strand. I've done it. And I've lived to type this. People have shuddered when I told them about that. I've had THAT rope for almost 4 years, and I'm still giving it whippers (just last weekend, matter of fact).

Depending on the manufacturer of the hanger and it's orientation, it could also be impossible to pull the rope. Getting the rope stuck in the hanger is the far larger risk of this method. It also does put a lot of wear onto the sheath.

Brian Wiesner wrote: Agreed, definitely. However, I have heard from a metallurgical standpoint that when a carabiner (or other metal object) is dropped from a good distance (say, 10 feet or so) onto rock, it can develop micro fractures (undetectable to the human eye) which, when stressed a few more times thereafter can cause it to break. If the last owner of a bootied carabiner dropped it like that causing such micro fractures, it - in theory - could break at any time, making it unsuitable as the only point of contact, since I don't know how the previous owner treated it.

You heard wrong. I'm not surprised you heard that, it's been a common myth that won't seem to die despite having been pretty soundly debunked. I'm no scientist so I'll leave the explanations to others but you also might find some details if you search this forum, I know it has been discussed in the past.
Yes, safety threshold is a personal choice - some people are fine bailing off one point of protection with a non-locking biner, others are not. You have to weigh the risk vs. reward for yourself. When people ask about the cost of a biner vs. the cost of medical care or the value or your life, that is what they are talking about - cost benefit analysis. Which, when deciding your margin of safety for bailing, is exactly the point.

It sounds like you are new and also don't have any fellow climbers to mentor you - so my best advice is to err on the side of caution until you have more experience and a better understanding of the risks.

Oh and to answer your question - it is pretty safe to rappel off a sling, as during the rappel your rope is stationary and not rubbing along the sling. Lowering through a sling is very not safe, as a weighted rope can saw through a sling pretty quickly. Retrieving your rappel rope after rappelling off a sling will not damage it as much, because it is not weighted, however it may not be safe to use. Personally if I rappel off a sling I'm not planning on using that sling again, and if I come across a rap station with no rings that looks like a rope ran directly over the sling, I treat it with skepticism.

Jake Jones wrote:It's pretty much a myth. But, there's a saying: If there is doubt, there is no doubt. Don't use it. Gnomesayin'?

Marc801 wrote: google.com/search?q=microfr…

Em Cos wrote: You heard wrong...

That's good to know. Thanks. I looked through the Google search Marc801 sent and found this link, specifically Myth #1:

roadtoelcap.com/blog/the-5-…

I passed the link along to my friend and asked him about it. He's an aerospace engineer who also worked at REI for a while, and while he would not describe himself as an "expert" on carabiners, he does deal with cracks and metal fatigue in the Boeing factory all day, so I would say he knows more than me and most other people. For what its worth, here is what he had to say:

"I’d generally agree that it’s probably not a big deal as long as the material isn’t visibly deformed. Generally speaking, climbing gear is lightweight so, if it were to fall, it wouldn’t get enough energy going to affect the metal too much anyway. I do call BS on his claim that a test at REI is anything close to definitive on the matter, but it’s fine for illustration I guess.

Despite what this author says, aluminum IS prone to cracking and those cracks CAN cause problems for the structure, but it’s a problem that normally presents itself more as a fatigue life issue than an ultimate strength issue. Given that climbing gear is generally not subject to cyclic loading, and what load it does experience in a cyclic manner is far lower than the material yield strength (I’d bet), there’s not a whole lot of concern from a fatigue perspective.

I think the issue that lead to this myth is that a crack, specifically the sharp point at it’s tip, causes a stress concentration that magnifies the stress going through the material at that point by several orders of magnitude. However, this relationship increases with crack length, so I would argue that by the time the ductility of the material can no longer compensate for the increased stress and it poses a risk to the ultimate strength of the piece of metal, it would likely be visible. (crack growth and metal fracture is really freakin’ complicated)

That all being said… If a piece of gear takes a tumble, I’d take some time to give it a really close look to make sure there’s nothing funky going on. Pay special attention near the hinges, any pin holes, or corners as these are places cracks tend to form anyway (see picture). If it looks okay and any damage looks isolated to the anodized layer, I’d say it’s probably okay to use. If you’re at all worried about it but not totally willing to replace it, you could just save it for a special place on the climb where, if it were to break you could handle the extra fall, or use it for a top-rope anchor where you are (should) already using multi-point failure setups anyway."

Cracked biner.

Dylan B. wrote:Impressive investigation in just four hours man.

Haha. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

bearbreeder wrote:someone posted up a pic of the petzl method above ... if you do bail on a non locking biner (or any other single biner in fact), its not a bad idea ... all you need is a short length of 7mm prussic cord and a locker in addition to the bail biner above

It's safer to use a GriGri IMO. Prusiks dont handle dynamic loads that well and I have seen them slip when presented with a dynamic load. If you cinch them down well they are much more likely to stop a dynamic load, but the problem is in this application the prusik wont be cinched down well because the leader is holding the prusik to allow it to slide down the rope.

Brian Wiesner wrote:IHowever, I have heard from a metallurgical standpoint that when a carabiner (or other metal object) is dropped from a good distance (say, 10 feet or so) onto rock, it can develop micro fractures (undetectable to the human eye) which, when stressed a few more times thereafter can cause it to break. If the last owner of a bootied carabiner dropped it like that causing such micro fractures, it - in theory - could break at any time, making it unsuitable as the only point of contact

The 7075-T6 aluminum that most biners are made from are not susceptible to microfractures from being dropped, not using the preparation and treatments used in modern-day manufacturing. Now, it is possible for aluminum to crack, and it is very well known that 7000 series aluminum is extremely susceptible to fatigue from cyclic loading, but unless you are dropping your biner 40,000 times, that doesent really apply. If the ductility of the biner was compromised, it could crack under some conditions, but the crack would be visible.

But let's look at the actual evidence to guide us. How many people have died or been injured as a result of invisible cracks in biners over the last 20 years? Zero as far as I am aware.

Here is what BD has to say about it:

Q. Is it okay to use carabiners that have been dropped?
A. Unfortunately, the only way to know if “dropped” carabiners are fit for use is to test them to their breaking point. This doesn’t do you much good, now does it? It's best to inspect dropped gear for dings and significant trauma. If only light scratching is visible and gate action is still good, there is a good chance it is fit for usage. Remember, only you know what your gear has been through and if there is any doubt, it's best to retire the gear rather than take a risk.

20 kN wrote: It's safer to use a GriGri IMO. Prusiks dont handle dynamic loads that well and I have seen them slip when presented with a dynamic load. If you cinch them down well they are much more likely to stop a dynamic load, but the problem is in this application the prusik wont be cinched down well because the leader is holding the prusik to allow it to slide down the rope. .

petzl doesnt usually recommend techniques before testing them extensively ... remember that once the fall happens the climber wont be holding the prusik anymore

personally i find that stiff cord slips more, mammut cord is really bad at this ... supple 7mm cord cinches down right away IME, sterling and maxim comes to mind

a purcell prusik has been tested to factor 2 drops on 100 kg steel weights and its really just a normal prusik on twinned 6/7mm cord ... you should absolutely in no way be approaching factor 2 (or even above factor 1) forces in this application, and you also have a dynamic rope in the system unlike the purcell drop tests

2005 ITRS

the thing about a grigri is that its not really a "hands free" device, petzl does not recommend it as such (and on steep/traversing climbs there are plenty of times youll use one hand to grab a hold, an the other to unclip the draw) ... even if we assume the grigri itself holds, the handle can get caught in a fall especially since youll probably twist the grigri downwards for this application

now soloers do use the grigri but they often have some soft of additional setup that holds it in a way where it wont twist and the handle is often shaved so it doesnt get caught ... not to mention back up knots

;)

It's also pretty rare that I leave my Grigri on my harness when I start up a sport climb. It usually stays on the ground.

Thanks for the good read... This has been hilarious. I remember when I had these questions, but man it's still funny as hell.

Linnaeus wrote:Texas rope trick if you are only 1/3 of the rope length from the ground.

Rodeo clipping?