Links for Bailing Sport Climbs

Um. With lots of tension on the top piece you think the rope is going to jump out Of the biner? C'mon bear. You know if won't happen.

And a few others mentioned stick clips. Hello.

Greg D wrote:Um. With lots of tension on the top piece you think the rope is going to jump out Of the biner? C'mon bear. You know if won't happen. And a few others mentioned stick clips. Hello.

ever stand on a ledge or hang from a hold and ask for slack to take out a draw on a traverse/overhang?

seems pretty much like TRing ... if theres one thing about climbing its to never say "never" especially from some intrawebbah

yosemite free climbs by don reid

note that a rappel anchor is usually under lots of tension as well yet the above happened

hmmmmm ...

how often are you bailing and what advantage does using a non-locker have other than about 3 dollahs (do you bail everyday?)

at the very least its a good idea to protect yourself with the petzl method if using a non locker

heres another one which is almost the exact same situation ...

RAPPEL FAILURE—INADEQUATE ANCHOR SETUP, INADEQUATE EQUIPMENT

Alberta, Lake Louise, Rack of the Lake Crag

On October 6, a climber was being lowered by her partner in order to retrieve her protection slings after leading the route “Top Gun” (5.7). After descending about 15 meters, she reached the lower-angled section of the climb and removed the last runner. A short distance below that, she fell five meters to the ground, suffering a deep puncture wound to the lower back, and a fractured tailbone. She was treated for her injuries and flown out by helicopter, by the Banff Warden Service and paramedics.

Analysis

The master point at the anchor was a steel, marine-type non-locking carabiner. The victim had clipped her rope in to it for lowering. Upon reaching the easier-angled rock, she may have partly unweighted the rope. It appears that the rope or the anchor carabiner changed position, and the rope ran across the gate of the carabiner and unclipped from it. A carabiner has the advantage that the climber does not have to untie to pass the rope through it, but as in various other situations, a single non-locking carabiner should be considered inadequate as the only point of attachment, as the potential exists for the rope to unclip itself. (Source: Marc Ledwidge, Banff National Park Warden Service)

Brian Wiesner wrote:Ya, I've already collected a couple locking biners, but everything I've been taught says to never use gear you find out in the field, and I would think that would ring especially true in this situation when it is the only thing holding me up. Also, some things posted seem somewhat contradictory - A taped biner would be MUCH more difficult for the next climber to remove when compared to a quick link, and yet the main argument against using a quick link is that it is too hard for the following climber to remove.

Lots of folks would re-use a bootied locking carabiner in this situation. All of my bail biners are bootied biners that I've found (and those are all wire or solid gates, none are lockers). Of course, you'll have to decide if this is OK for you.

A quicklink requires a wrench to loosen or fully tighten. A taped biner does not. You only need a couple wraps of tape. How is a taped biner much more difficult to remove?

Have a single non-locking carabiner to bail with, in your inventory. What if you can't see the next bolt, or reach it (unless your stick clip bends) because the next section of the route has a roof or a bulge? I understand the stick clip method, however, you won't be covered in every scenario if you pursue various types of climbs (i.e. other than slab or vertical!) I do, however, want a stick clip in my inventory for a scenario that warrants the use of one. I've lowered off of a bootied non-locking biner. I haven't returned to that crag to see if it's still there lol! This sh*t is easy!

I also REALLY wanna stick clip so I can ascend the rope when I stick clip the bolt above the progress I've already made! Useful for when there is no easy access to the top anchor via a hike, and for when there are no adjacent routes that are easy enough to lead and traverse to the top of the project you're eyeballin'! Pre-hung draws! I've seen stick clip tips that have a rope-clipping function, quickdraw clip and unclip from bolt function!

Greg D wrote:Whether the biner is locking or not adds little margin to your safety. Do you really think your rope is going to magically jump out of a non locker while you are lowering? Lower off a non locker and keep your rope clipped to a second bolt below with another biner. Lowering off a single piece is your real danger. Using a stick clip is super gay. So avoid this tactic if there are any cute girls around.

you stole my reply Greg.

bearbreeder wrote:Analysis The master point at the anchor was a steel, marine-type non-locking carabiner. The victim had clipped her rope in to it for lowering. Upon reaching the easier-angled rock, she may have partly unweighted the rope. It appears that the rope or the anchor carabiner changed position, and the rope ran across the gate of the carabiner and unclipped from it. A carabiner has the advantage that the climber does not have to untie to pass the rope through it, but as in various other situations, a single non-locking carabiner should be considered inadequate as the only point of attachment, as the potential exists for the rope to unclip itself. (Source: Marc Ledwidge, Banff National Park Warden Service)

Thanks for this. I've never realized this could happen, but it makes sense. I've bailed off of a few non-lockers and always assumed it was risky but worth it. This seems like a situation dependent thing, if you're going to be lowered straight down to the ground (no slabs in your way) then it would be an acceptable risk. But if there's a ledge or slab on the way down it'd be good to use a locker.

With the neato stick clips that you can pick up off of the interwebs, they allow you to clip up and down a route. Fuck those other dudes who hate on the stick clip. I like my ankles.

Jake Jones wrote: Yes. The Texas Rope Trick. But honestly, a single biner will do to bail. I've used the TRT, and it works, but being suspended from a sling that's run through a thin steel hanger was a bit unnerving. YMMV. Think about this for a second. Which costs more? Surgery and a lengthy hospital stay, or a locking biner? Surgery or a stick clip? A funeral or a locking biner? If your life, to you, isn't worth spending ten bucks on a biner, well then you're probably in the wrong recreational activity. I advise against quicklinks for the reasons already covered multiple times. I have used single non-locking biners to bail on multiple occasions. Sometimes taped shut, sometimes not. But... but... what about trusting your LIFE to a single piece you say?!?!?!? If you don't have a stick clip, get one. If you don't know how to stick your way up a route, learn before you actually need to do it. You're a spurt clammer. Act like one.

Anyone done the bail backup with a GriGri? Just curious...

Brian Wiesner wrote: Does anyone know of one around (or less than) 2 oz for <$3?

I am selling bail biners—Real carabiners that you can leave behind.

mountainproject.com/v/fs-gr…

Bail biners are typically the way to go about it. You can use quicklinks but they can be a PIA for the next person to remove and they are heavy. Once you start climbing hard enough you will recover as many as you left behind previously, so it kind of all evens out in the end.

DBarton wrote: Anyone done the bail backup with a GriGri? Just curious...

Yes, but I use a Cinch. It would be stupid not to. There have been numerous deaths from single bolt failures, and some of those involved lowering of one bolt on a sport line.

I do not understand bailing on a "sport climb." Is there some pressing danger?

You could also try down whipping; just unclip the draw and jump off; repeat. Fastest way back to the ground.

I am enjoying this. Since I am the only climber I have ever known, I appreciate your expertise. Thanks to all.

What I'm getting is that 50% of the posters are fine using a single non-locker and the other half need something that locks. It seems like what is considered "safe enough" is largely a matter of personal opinion, so I especially appreciate citing specific cases where, for example, non-lockers have un-clipped or otherwise failed.

To those that are making the argument of "what is cheaper, a funeral or a biner?" you are missing the point.

Em Cos wrote:That advice is more important with something like slings that may have been sitting out in the sun for an unknown length of time. Hard goods are pretty easy to check.

Agreed, definitely. However, I have heard from a metallurgical standpoint that when a carabiner (or other metal object) is dropped from a good distance (say, 10 feet or so) onto rock, it can develop micro fractures (undetectable to the human eye) which, when stressed a few more times thereafter can cause it to break. If the last owner of a bootied carabiner dropped it like that causing such micro fractures, it - in theory - could break at any time, making it unsuitable as the only point of contact, since I don't know how the previous owner treated it.

Em Cos wrote:I'm confused because you seem more motivated by saving a few bucks than by safety when you suggest taping a non-locker.

Not MORE motivated, but my career as a flight instructor isn't like winning the lottery either. I did not suggest the tape, another poster did above. I had never heard of doing that, so I was asking about it. Just gathering info.

bearbreeder wrote:its not a bad idea to use the petzl method to protect yourself, especially if yr using a snapgate

You mention the "Petzl method" in a couple different posts. What is it?

bearbreeder wrote:how often are you bailing and what advantage does using a non-locker have other than about 3 dollahs (do you bail everyday?)

Well, cards on the table, I'm not a great climber. I max-out at a 10d or so. In addition to that, we enjoy going out and just climbing random routes, some of which (as it turns out) end up being more difficult than they look from the ground. Again, I don't know any climbers and therefore don't have someone to show me all the routes and their ratings. Yes, mountain project has descriptions, but most routes are difficult to locate just based on the info available, at least here in Prescott, AZ. As a result, I may start a route that doesn't look too bad and then it turns out to be an 11 or 12, which is above my pay grade. I'd say I bail on SOMETHING once every time I go out, although so far I have been able to hike up and retrieve the gear. Thanks for those references. They were very helpful.

Linnaeus wrote:A quicklink requires a wrench to loosen or fully tighten. A taped biner does not. You only need a couple wraps of tape. How is a taped biner much more difficult to remove?

Quicklinks that are but up to bail off of weren't tightened with a wrench. The one quick link I've found mid-route was very easy to remove, so that's what I was basing my comment off of, but I can definitely understand the points about it rusting, so I won't use quick links for that purpose.

J Marsella wrote:1. Unclip top draw, downclimb, repeat 2. Unclip top draw, try to downclimb, fall, aid back to new top draw, repeat 3. Lower from single leaver biner

I'm assuming a "leaver biner" is one you leave on the wall. Why would I do steps 1 and 2 if I need to leave a biner up anyway? Why not just replace the top draw with that biner and lower from there, cleaning while hanging?

HardestMan wrote:I do not understand bailing on a "sport climb." Is there some pressing danger?

Bailing isn't about danger (for me), its about the physical inability to get to the top because the route and surrounding routes are too difficult.

Seems like I've heard of slings getting burnt as you drag the rope over when retrieving after a rappel, which would mean the Texas Rope Trick sacrifices a sling. So far I've only rapped off metal, so I've never tried it but it seems somewhat sketchy. Input?

someone posted up a pic of the petzl method above ... if you do bail on a non locking biner (or any other single biner in fact), its not a bad idea ...

bail backup

all you need is a short length of 7mm prussic cord and a locker in addition to the bail biner above

remember the hangers/bolts do come off sport routes for a number of reasons ... so its best not to be on a single bolt only if you can help it ...

local area this month ,,,,

from a local group

;)

Brian Wiesner wrote:What I'm getting is that 50% of the posters are fine using a single non-locker and the other half need something that locks. It seems like what is considered "safe enough" is largely a matter of personal opinion

That's a theme in climbing in general. Different climbers are comfortable with different degrees of risk. I think I can say with some confidence that a locker is "safer" than a non-locker as your bail biner. But how much safer? Enough to matter?

Risk tolerance & risk mitigation are important themes. You can never be 100% safe; what's safe enough? What's safe enough for you?

Then once you think you've got a handle on that, we add in even more variables. Weather is rolling in, what's more dangerous, the lightning exposure or skipping your 3rd hand for rappell?

Probably the second-most fascinating part about rock climbing to me, after the geology.

Bounce test the single biner before going in direct to it! Then, whether you lower by belay or rappel off of it, don't get all excited and descend on it so fast that when you slow your descent, you're shock loading it! This is elementary school sh*t! I recently saw a story where the chunk of rock that had the top anchor of a sport route in it popped outta the wall, causing the climber that was being lowered off of it to plummet to his death (ICU, actually)! If you're concerned about the hardware that you're clipping to a bolt, then why even engage in this sport?! Clear your head of the fear and enjoy tempting the fate! This activity is not compatible with everyone! Suck it the f*** up!

Brian Wiesner wrote:
Is there a trick to doing it without losing gear?... Does anyone know of one around (or less than) 2 oz for <$3? ... If there a good reason that whatever I use for this should be locking (i.e. not just a cheap non-locking carabiner)? ... Of course locking is always safer, but its also more expensive for something that only gets used once

Thread the rope through the bolt hanger, lower sharp end to the ground, rap the double strand. I've done it. And I've lived to type this. People have shuddered when I told them about that. I've had THAT rope for almost 4 years, and I'm still giving it whippers (just last weekend, matter of fact). Another sport climber recommended using it, because he used it. I love challenging myself with improvising in the moment, with a high chance of dying, and surviving. People are out there aid climbing big walls, solo, and free soloing at Mt. Yosemite, The Diamond, the list goes on and on.

No.
Someone in Italy wrote:  

"Thread the rope through the bolt hangar, lower sharp end to the ground, rap the double strand. I've done it. And I've lived to type this. People have shuddered when I told them about that. I've had THAT rope for almost 4 years, and I'm still giving it whippers (just last weekend, matter of fact). Another sport climber recommended using it, because he used it. I love challenging myself with improvising in the moment, with a high chance of dying, and surviving. People are out there aid climbing big walls, solo, and free soloing at Mt. Yosemite, The Diamond, the list goes on and on."

Climbing rope manufacturers will not agree with this statement. Lucky that it worked out doesn't make it innovative.

Dylan B wrote: Ah! The dreaded microfractures rear their mighty heads once again. Who's gonna set him straight?

I'm not an engineer and only know what I've heard. That's why I asked. If you have a reference that proves otherwise, post a link.

Brian Wiesner wrote: I'm not an engineer and only know what I've heard. That's why I asked. If you have a reference that proves otherwise, post a link.

google.com/search?q=microfr…