Tag line length

So I am looking into getting a 7 mm tag line for raps instead of trailing a full length single rope. I can get a 120 m spool for a good price and am thinking of cutting it in half to create 2 60 m tag lines. I just wanted to get opinions on using a 60 m tag line. I know I won't be able to rap longer than 60 m, but how often does that happen. I'm having trouble remembering any raps with two 70's that come close to the end of the ropes.

10% longer than yr main dynamic line ... account for stretch

;)

mac gilbert wrote:So I am looking into getting a 7 mm tag line for raps instead of trailing a full length single rope. I can get a 120 m spool for a good price and am thinking of cutting it in half to create 2 60 m tag lines. I just wanted to get opinions on using a 60 m tag line. I know I won't be able to rap longer than 60 m, but how often does that happen. I'm having trouble remembering any raps with two 70's that come close to the end of the ropes.

60m is fine. Cordlette does stretch some. It's fine. Been using 60m of 6mm for years

20 kN wrote: 60m is fine. Cordlette does stretch some. It's fine. Been using 60m of 6mm for years

it wont stretch as much as a dynamic rope on a static hang... especially if one has something like a beal

also if one uses the "normal" rap with a ATC rather than a single strand + pull cord ... the 7mm may slide a bit faster leading to a bit of unevenness ... the extra few metres helps even this out

;)

mac gilbert wrote:I know I won't be able to rap longer than 60 m, but how often does that happen. I'm having trouble remembering any raps with two 70's that come close to the end of the ropes.

Not completely true. If you ever run short you can use the tag line as a pull line with a carabiner block. This means you can rap half the sum of the lengths of the two ropes. Even better, assuming you will be carrying a few slings or a cordelette you can easily extend the 60m tag as a pull line to 70m and make full 70m raps.

Are there many 70m or longer raps where you climb?

My 7mm tag line is 65m to account for the stretch from my main line.

bump for recommendations on tag lines
also, do most join with a fisherman's knot for raps

Ok, I’m a noob. Enlighten me as to benefits of tag line over pair of thin doubles or twins....we’re talking for mostly rap purposes as stated by OP.  Not hauling benefits....
If you’re gonna carry two ropes anyway, why not 2 real climb ropes?

Mark Pilate wrote: Ok, I’m a noob. Enlighten me as to benefits of tag line over pair of thin doubles or twins....we’re talking for mostly rap purposes as stated by OP.  Not hauling benefits....
If you’re gonna carry two ropes anyway, why not 2 real climb ropes?

Lots of potential pros/cons. With doubles, the party gains an additional climbing rope, so potentially improved redundancy, can still do full-length rappels, and stuck rappels might be less problematic. However, this often comes with a weight penalty and potentially increased rope management complexity (depends on competence of the party, etc.)

With a tag line, the party effectively just uses a single rope on the up. This means the tag line can be lighter and smaller than one double rope, since it's just for rappelling; however, specific rope selection may mean that a set of double ropes could still be lighter than a single plus tag line. As you note, it could also be used for hauling. Rope management is simplified. Further, a single rope allows the party to employ a bevy of additional techniques for covering lots of terrain efficiently: simul-climbing using progress captures, coils on a GriGri, GriGri jugging, etc., short-fixing, follower on TR solo, etc. Most of these techniques rely on specific tools (notably GriGri and Microtraxion) which only accommodate single ropes. There are some two-slot options for some of these tasks, but they are less well established in these "off label" uses and may not be appropriate. Similarly, there are many more ABD options for belaying the leader with a single rope than with double ropes.

There are now also a few tag lines on the market (Edelrid makes one, I believe Sterling as well?) that are good for one lead fall (that you ideally don't take). This hopes to combine the advantages of a tagline without the disadvantages of carrying a second rope (notably if a rope gets stuck while rappelling). Or, the Beal Escaper might address the problem similarly by allowing for full-length rappels while using a single rope with a very small weight/space penalty.

also, do most join with a fisherman's knot for raps

This is not typically necessary. A flat overhand bend (aka Euro death knot) with the smaller diameter cord positioned such that it would have to roll over the large diameter cord is adequately strong and secure for rappelling (left image). Alternately, to isolate the joining knot from being loaded (particularly useful if the knot could slip through a large ring, quicklink, etc.), a reepschnur style rig can be used, with the larger cord effectively girth hitched through the rappel station and secured with a locking carabiner, to which the tag line is then attached (right image). See https://i0.wp.com/blacksheepadventuresports.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/RapLineIIRappel.jpg: 

The main reason I bought a tag line: I already had a single and the tag line was the cheapest choice.

One negative of a tag line is that the smaller diameter ropes tend to "snarl up" more than larger diameter.  This can be a pain on low-angle slab and on overhanging rock (ever try to clear a "snot ball" while hanging in free space ? )  This factor can be alleviated by having the first climber down rap single-strand on the" fixed" main rope while the 2nd climber pay out the tag line which is attached to the first climber.  (A "rope bag" also works.) 2nd climber then removes the "fixing know" and raps normal tag-line technique. 

That being said, I use 'em when/where appropriate and like the weight savings, although with the new 7.8 mm twin-double ropes there isn't that much anymore, if any at all. BUT, I just don't like using double ropes for leading except where totally necessary (e.g. a traverse to an OH )

mac gilbert wrote: So I am looking into getting a 7 mm tag line for raps instead of trailing a full length single rope. I can get a 120 m spool for a good price and am thinking of cutting it in half to create 2 60 m tag lines. I just wanted to get opinions on using a 60 m tag line. I know I won't be able to rap longer than 60 m, but how often does that happen. I'm having trouble remembering any raps with two 70's that come close to the end of the ropes.

I have a 60m 7mm tag line sitting in my gear closet that is unused, and will probably remain unused.  Shoot me a PM with an offer and it's yours should you decide on 60m.

Mark Pilate wrote: Ok, I’m a noob. Enlighten me as to benefits of tag line over pair of thin doubles or twins....we’re talking for mostly rap purposes as stated by OP.  Not hauling benefits....
If you’re gonna carry two ropes anyway, why not 2 real climb ropes?

Yea I thought the same thing when I was a noob. 

Here I am, 15 years and a bunch of 1000+ foot routes later, and I still have never found a reason to own a tag line. 
Now I realise that another part of being a noob is mistaking gear heads for experienced climbers. 

I think tag lines are primarily vestiges from the days of 10-11mm single ropes...

I used a tag line for a couple of years, then I bough a couple of skinny ropes and a 70M. I don't know what happened to the tag line, but I don't have it any more.  

That also may be a function of where I climb though, too. I know that there aren't many (or any) raps that need 50-60 meters to get down.

I agree with those who say "weight's not an issue these days" (of 9.0mm singles).  I recently bought a 9.2mm x 50m for easy alpine stuff with longer approaches and thought it would be good to be able to do 35m raps (as if we had a 70m rope), so I cut 120 ft (about 36.5m) of 7mm from an old 7.0mm cord I had.  But when I weighed the "pair" they weighed more than my 70m x 9.0mm ! So much for saving weight on the approach.

About the only time I use a tag line these days if when there's just 2 of us, and it's a 4-6 + multi-pitch route where we MUST do full 60m raps between anchors. (i.e. no trees along the way, nor even the occasional "singleton" good bolt where you can back-up the bolt for the heavier person's rap)

I bumped this thread mostly to see what people are using and how they are rigging their rappels.

I have doubles and sometimes bring them if I know I need to do a two rope rap, other times I bring the serenity 8.7 and 1 double 8.5.  Just not that stoked on using doubles most of the time.

I'm doing more backpacking into climbs and want more options mostly for bailing or if I come upon a need for a two rope rap.

Maybe "tag line" isn't the best descriptor for this.  

After more research, I'm seeing a wide variety on diameter and whether or not you rig as a single rope rap with a biner block with a real skinny "pull cord" or rigging as a normal two rope rap with a larger diameter second rope (6-7mm).

I'm thinking I want a skinny pull cord and set up with a biner block, mostly for the weight savings.

splitclimber wrote: I bumped this thread mostly to see what people are using and how they are rigging their rappels.

I have doubles and sometimes bring them if I know I need to do a two rope rap, other times I bring the serenity 8.7 and 1 double 8.5.  Just not that stoked on using doubles most of the time.

I'm doing more backpacking into climbs and want more options mostly for bailing or if I come upon a need for a two rope rap.

Maybe "tag line" isn't the best descriptor for this.  

After more research, I'm seeing a wide variety on diameter and whether or not you rig as a single rope rap with a biner block with a real skinny "pull cord" or rigging as a normal two rope rap with a larger diameter second rope (6-7mm).

I'm thinking I want a skinny pull cord and set up with a biner block, mostly for the weight savings.

This may depend on how far you're backpacking in. The more remote and committing you get, the more I like a second rope of some kind--I usually use a ~7.5mm double rope as a tag line in these cases. That second rope can afford a lot of versatility for the descent, in addition to rope cut/rockfall self-rescue scenarios. This is also all very dependent on how long the rappels are, the nature of the terrain, how established the climbing is, etc

I dig the pull cord setup. It's not for everyone, and if you like climbing on doubles, then use doubles. But if you like climbing on a single lead line, and want a super-light cord for hauling a pack or the option of doing long raps, the lightweight tag has merit. Its also nice to be able to "tag" up gear from your belayer. Again, not for everyone, but I love this system and use it often.