How To Get Asked Out on a Second Date

Thanks for posting rgold, overall this is good advice with some very good points! A few critiques though:

- Section 4 is full of dangerous advice, as others have pointed out. Regardless of experience level, I don't think a second should ever unclip from the anchor until they are on belay.

- A PAS can be useful, it's a matter of preference, but even if you have one, you shouldn't use it as your primary safety tether on a belay ledge- A clove hitch on the rope is safer, and people should learn that from the beginning. A PAS is most useful when preparing to rappel and on rappel transitions, since you have to untie from the rope at that point.

- A factor 2 fall is never acceptable on a sling or PAS! Never! Don't even hint at otherwise.

I especially relate to the point of the follower keeping your gear organized on the sling. There's nothing like seeing your partner come up with all your alpine draws dangling at their feet, brutally scratching up your carabiners and snagging the slings, because they made no attempt to shorten them.. Of course you've gotta forgive a partner their first 2 or 3 times for not getting your system down, but if they clearly make no attempt to treat your expensive gear well, and not waste 20 minutes making you clean up the rat's nest they hand you, then yeah ditch them.

100% Dan..

And the importance of learning how to clean gear. I usually spend some time on the ground with a new partner, making sure they at least know the basics. I hate hearing a partner whale on every single nut and tricam with the nut tool, even the ones that you know were not set very hard and should slide right out!

I once had a partner refuse to even attempt to clean nuts. Her boyfriend pretty much used cams exclusively, and she didn't have the patience to learn or attempt to clean them. After she abandoned my first nut after spending one minute on it, I had to avoid placing nuts for the next two pitches (for fear of losing more gear). Limiting my gear options affects both of our safety.

That is one person I will never ever climb with again..

Miike wrote: says the guy with 3 belay pieces, a prussic, cordalette and a PAS at the gym ;) honestly though, the majority of crags that the majority of climbers go to in the NE are within 15 minutes of the car, that cannot be denied. If you hike 20 minutes you will be crossing a road with a Dunkin Donuts a few blocks down.

i don't think leaving a prussic on your harness should ever be considered a bad thing. in fact, if i see a newbie keep a prussic on their harness i give them mental props for being prepared to ascend the rope at all times. if they don't know how to use it, though, thats a different story. and don't be talkin' shit about donuts their fucking awesome

eli poss wrote: i don't think leaving a prussic on your harness should ever be considered a bad thing. in fact, if i see a newbie keep a prussic on their harness i give them mental props for being prepared to ascend the rope at all times. if they don't know how to use it, though, thats a different story. and don't be talkin' shit about donuts their fucking awesome

I was beginning to wonder about you from some of your past posts...but now I realize that we'd get along just fine. This is all I need to know about someone in order to know if they'd make a good climbing partner. Donuts are awesome.

Good primer, rgold.

Here's what I know about being a second:
I learned to climb in the mid/late 90s. There were few climbers in Memphis then, and no gyms, so you basically had to hunt down a climber and beg them to take you along. I did this and formed an apprentice-type relationship. I carried most of the gear and did most of the driving. I paid for gas and meals. I made a million mistakes. I got yelled at. I learned to climb without flail. I learned to build an anchor, clean a route, coil a rope.

Was my mentor sometimes jerky? Uh, absolutely. But he also never let me put either of us in an epic situation.

I guess my point is that there are different kinds of "seconds:"
When I climb with my competent friends, we are partners. We don't do things exactly the same, but I trust them to keep me safe on lead or belay.

Sometimes an intermediate climber will join me soley/largely as a follower--usually because they lack experience and gear. I trust them to catch me. I ask that they retrieve my gear without abusing it. I try to show them what I know about climbing safely by climbing safely.

A long-term second--like I was--is often simply an apprentice, so things have to be taught and tested and retaught. Before I trust an apprentice to do anything, they'll have to demonstrate that they know what they're doing.

I hadn't thought of a shoulder length sling just for cleaning, until this thread. Sounds like such a good idea that I went out today and bought one for just that reason. No more being handed a handful or gear, or taking up time being handed each piece and draw individually. Great idea!

Rich, I think it's a great list, but it is geared more for "advanced" followers I think... If you are taking a complete beginner, any experienced leader would have a nut tool, extra slings, few lockers and 6mm cords for prussiks to lend to their aspiring climbing partner. Heck, they probably have that PAS collecting dust in their gear bin. As beerbreeder said, being positive and motivated, being open to learn and willing to help (with climbing chores, carrying gear, gas, food etc.) is all that matters - everything else will fall into place eventually.

The audience I was addressing are people who can already climb, often very well, by virtue of gym and sport experience, so not total beginners, just people unfamiliar with trad climbing. (I've climbed with a number of people in this category in recent years, which is part of the motivation for putting down what I think it would be useful for them to know.) The audience might also include some people with minimal guided experience.

What these folks don't know much or at all is how to handle gear, how to be part of good belay changeover management, and how to be an effective team member. The result---and I'm here to testify---can be very inefficient, very slow progress and sometimes surprisingly unteamlike behavior.

Believe me, I can handle all of that and have. I honestly don't think you'll find many people anywhere more calm and patient than I am. But there is no reason why the people I've described couldn't hit the ground running a lot faster than many of them do, and although it is true that they will learn these things eventually, my experience suggests that eventually may not roll around for quite a long while, whereas much of this (excluding things like prussiking practice) can be learned in part of a day.

When I've communicated these things in person, I've often heard back, sometimes quite a bit later from a then more experienced person, about how helpful these ideas had been, so I figured writing 'em down would benefit others in the audience I've described. I certainly had no intention of promulgating anything like "rules," and am well aware that other people may have different preferences---which may or may not be better.

As for the title, it was obviously chosen tongue-in-cheek in order to attract some eyeballs. That it seems to have done, although many of the eyeballs seem rather bloodshot over my recommendations. So be it, I make no claims other than these practices are effective and logical. Others may have their own way of doing things.

pebble pullahs and bolt weenies first time up trad multi

"were running up 14 easy pitches to the top of the chief ... if it takes more than 6 hours yr buying me the biggest steak dinner ever and enough beer that i puke for the next week" ...

result ... we get to the top in 6 hours ...

butt face 5.8

thats just how we roll in squamish ...

;)

Mmm...looks like you'r gonna have a full dance card then.

rgold wrote: The result---and I'm here to testify---can be very inefficient, very slow progress and sometimes surprisingly unteamlike behavior. Believe me, I can handle all of that and have. I honestly don't think you'll find many people anywhere more calm and patient than I am.

I know where you're coming from and I could attest to your patience ;), I was rather explaining to the rest in this thread. I've been in situations, when after a full day of climbing, providing all gear, putting up the ropes and pulling, coiling the rope after each pitch, I'd go "Wait. Did this person just use me as a free guide?" The first one I almost didn't mind, since I was injured and it gave me a chance to climb easy stuff. But the second time it was a very experienced sport/trad climber who wanted to try out ice climbing. Young, able guy - he didn't offer to pull the ropes after rappels even once.

doligo wrote: I know where you're coming from and I could attest to your patience ;), I was rather explaining to the rest in this thread. I've been in situations, when after a full day of climbing, providing all gear, putting up the ropes and pulling, coiling the rope after each pitch, I'd go "Wait. Did this person just use me as a free guide?" The first one I almost didn't mind, since I was injured and it gave me a chance to climb easy stuff. But the second time it was a very experienced sport/trad climber who wanted to try out ice climbing. He didn't even offer to pull the ropes after rappels even once.

I've been there too! The best part was when I told these guys I was climbing with a friend tomorrow they replied "Damn now what are we going to do? We lost our guide.." I was actually dying to get away from them as they did all kinds of dumb shit. ie: not pulling the slack up but yelling you're on belay! Loading the belay device wrong and arguing with me about it. My favorite line of the trip was "it wouldn't be there if it wasn't safe". Dude was taking about a rattest rap anchor I've ever seen. Oh and dudes walked back to the car leaving me to pack up the rope and rack into my pack. Haha.. Memories!

rgold wrote:[snip] although many of the eyeballs seem rather bloodshot over my recommendations. So be it, I make no claims other than these practices are effective and logical. Others may have their own way of doing things.

Your original post was (as is almost always the case) well written and full of useful information. This being the internet, it's inevitable that people will nitpick and disagree with even the most reasonable statements. It's always a source of entertainment to me when I see people here on MP who apparently have no idea who they're talking to lecturing you on what you're totally wrong about.

JL

I wish I'd had information like this when I was first taken out by my mentor. He furnished all the gear (even an extra PAS for me), didn't ask me to carry anything even though I offered, and was very attentive in him instruction. He answered all the questions I had and explained everything. Hell, he even drove us there and back. Things are a little different now I have my own gear and have more experience. We split the load and each bring some gear. But it more and more obvious that I was very lucky to get such an opportunity in the first place. But as I said, having this information would have been very useful during my first few outings.

rgold wrote:Mmm...looks like you'r gonna have a full dance card then.

but never enuff hawties !!!

i expect to teach most of the points that youve listed if the person is new at trad, not to mention i got extra gear just for this as well ... and its rarely been an issue

the points which has been an issue is folks being unsafe, uncommitted, calling it quits after a few pitches, being negative, etc ....

skills can always be taught ... attitude is much harder

in fact i prefer to teach new trad/multi climbers myself so that i can see they know how to do it safely (read my way) ... with all the youtube vids and intrawebz forums you never know what folks will "learn"

also fairly important is that someone be able to climb at a decent level ... you can have all the technical skills listed above but if yr struggling to follow a 5.7 ill probably not climb again with you unless yr a hawty, close friend/family, or respectable ole legend ... nothing wrong with doing a few 5.5 pitches and calling it a day, theres always partners out for that, just not me when i want to find potential regular partners

now if you boulder v4+, sport climb well into the 11s/12s, and are of sound attitude and mind ... i have absolutely no issue teaching you everything you need to learn as you can easily follow up everything that this ole durty AZN breeder of bears can lead

;)

bearbreeder wrote: in fact i prefer to teach new trad/multi climbers myself so that i can see they know how to do it safely (read my way)

This. I'd rather start with a blank slate than someone who is full of bad habits they need to un-learn, and may be too stubborn to do so..

I've climbed with some people who have years more experience than me (I'm fairly new at trad), but absolutely suck at cleaning nuts and tricams, because they never use anything but cams. They take forever to clean them, and beat the crap out of nearly every single piece with a nut tool. Yet my brand-new-to-trad partners after only one or two days climbing with me, and a little bit of practice on the ground, can clean everything easily and efficiently. I use a whole lot of nuts and tricams, including a lot of small stuff and some pretty tricky placements, and my partners still clean even the difficult ones pretty easily.

The right attitude is definitely the most important quality I look for in a partner. And I'll gladly take some extra time on my first climbing trip with them, to make sure I have a reliable and safe partner. That said, it doesn't hurt for them to do a bit of reading and research on their own in preparation, as long as they make sure to check to make sure whatever they learn is safe and appropriate, and works with our system.

Wow wow wow, rgold, too many words! How about a willing belayer with a built in chair for a butt and a puffy parka attached. Silent enough, patient enough, awake enough, and with just the right little beta pieces when you are delirious and losing your mind on lead. That is pure gold!

bearbreeder wrote:Be fun Be positive Be safe Be willing to learn Be available Be a hawtie (guy or girl, whatever yr preference) Be ready to climb at yr limit Be ready to climb many many pitches and not make excuses Buy beer, food and pay for gas Thats all there is ... Everything else will come with time ;)

True that! Emphasis on "Beer and Gas!"

rgold wrote:The audience I was addressing are people who can already climb, often very well, by virtue of gym and sport experience, so not total beginners, just people unfamiliar with trad climbing. (I've climbed with a number of people in this category in recent years, which is part of the motivation for putting down what I think it would be useful for them to know.) The audience might also include some people with minimal guided experience. What these folks don't know much or at all is how to handle gear, how to be part of good belay changeover management, and how to be an effective team member. The result---and I'm here to testify---can be very inefficient, very slow progress and sometimes surprisingly unteamlike behavior. Believe me, I can handle all of that and have. I honestly don't think you'll find many people anywhere more calm and patient than I am. But there is no reason why the people I've described couldn't hit the ground running a lot faster than many of them do, and although it is true that they will learn these things eventually, my experience suggests that eventually may not roll around for quite a long while, whereas much of this (excluding things like prussiking practice) can be learned in part of a day. When I've communicated these things in person, I've often heard back, sometimes quite a bit later from a then more experienced person, about how helpful these ideas had been, so I figured writing 'em down would benefit others in the audience I've described. I certainly had no intention of promulgating anything like "rules," and am well aware that other people may have different preferences---which may or may not be better. As for the title, it was obviously chosen tongue-in-cheek in order to attract some eyeballs. That it seems to have done, although many of the eyeballs seem rather bloodshot over my recommendations. So be it, I make no claims other than these practices are effective and logical. Others may have their own way of doing things.

I agree here. I have seen several times a group on a 5.11 or 5.12 route. the leader is scooting up fast and then take 15 minutes to build the anchor finally gets the second moving and then there is another half an hour at the change over.

On the other hand I have seen some the older climbers on 5.8s and the changeover for the next pitch is maybe 5 minutes at most.

It takes more than climbing hard to show your climbing knowledge. and a few tricks can really make a trip faster and the number of epics much lower.
RGold has some good pointers that can make the efficiency much better.