How To Get Asked Out on a Second Date

Tom, er.....old friend, you know we're in the aged minority any more. :)Guess we didn't know much back in the day.

I admit that I am a complete gumby in comparison to a lot of the posters in this thread. OP made some good points but for me it all comes down to attitude. If you are fun, excited, and safe I will happily climb with you!

I agree with the above post about West coast climbers not using PAS rigs for anything but sport climbing. I can't think of any of my trad or ice climbing partners that use one, as they are just one more piece of gear that can only be used for one thing. My local community seems to prefer securing to anchors with the rope and I personally extend my rappels with a double length nylon sling, as Petzl recommends in one of their excellent technique tips.

This post was for the beginning trad follower... Not people who know what they're doing. A PAS makes things easier, of course it's not necessary but as a new follower you try to make things as easy for the leader who's putting up with someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

Thanks for the well thought out post

Ryan M Moore wrote:Thanks for the well thought out post

No need to be a dick. I teach people to clove hitch to the anchor with the rope, which seems to be the superior method to me. It's not hard... I haven't met a new climber yet who struggles to learn how to secure themselves this way, and it seems to be better to teach people the "right" way the first time.

Anchoring in with the rope and a clove can take years to master. Using slings decades. PAS is as must.

The thanks for the well thought out post was directed to rgold. Should have made that clearer, sorry. I personally prefer the clove as well especially if the belay is on a ledge, but the pas allows things to be a little cleaner and quicker on the transition sometimes.

Ryan M Moore wrote:The thanks for the well thought out post was directed to rgold. Should have made that clearer, sorry. I personally prefer the clove as well especially if the belay is on a ledge, but the pas allows things to be a little cleaner and quicker on the transition sometimes.

No worries, sorry for the misinterpretation! Damn internet... everyone seems sarcastic on forums.

Ah Gunks climbers...

If a partner ever complained about the way I racked gear following a pitch, that would be the LAST time we ever climbed together.

Thanks rgold. Lots of good information bundled up in a format that makes sense.

I completely understand why a PAS is usefully to a new trad follower. It makes things so much easier. I find I'm using mine less now, but it's always nice to have the option, and of course for extending rappels. Very true that a sling can be used in the same way, but I think a PAS makes everything simpler for someone already overwhelmed with the learning curve. It's on the harness, right there with a locker on it, and easily adjustable.

I'm glad this is a sticky.

teece303 wrote:If a partner ever complained about the way I racked gear following a pitch, that would be the LAST time we ever climbed together.

If you showed up at the belay with a shitshow of gear all over your harness and it cost us five minutes per changeover, that'd be the last time we climbed together.

A couple things I would like to write so as to enlighten:

You don't use a cordlette, a PAS or a helmet. Nobody gives a fuck.

East coast climbs are closer to the road. BS! I've been everywhere man, I've been everywhere and there's climbs 20 minutes from the car and are the ones hours from anything in every state.

R, thanks for the interesting read. Can we add that either person can't bail more than a couple times a season or its a deal breaker?

i'm more inclined to build an anchor on the ground and run a first time follower through how shit is going to work. i think the various anchor building threads show that there are a literal fuck ton of ways to build an anchor. i'd rather my new follower know what to expect at the anchor as well as what i expect before we leave the ground. i would rather not have them rely on a pas and 73 doo dads, trinkets, knick knacks, and so on the overcome the mind blowing revelation of a belay station.

at the end of the day, it's your responsibility to control the situation. if you have a clueless follower fumbling around with his batman-esque utility belt that doubles as a harness to pull out which gadget is going to bring him into the anchor as the words "yer gonna die" echo in his head......that's on you.

keep it simple. keep it tight.

who you decide to mentor is a reflection of you. take the time to teach them the right way. this might be taking them out a second time after a "bad first date".

but in the end, asking questions and then being berated online should not be as large of a part of the education as it seems to be. we create a generation that would rather keep their mouth shut and learn the hard way than ask advice. take more pride in your craft. who you mentor is a reflection of you, so do shit the right way.......or i guess you could start a thread on how the new generation is ruining climbing.......but maybe that's another difference between coasts?

It seems I've touched a nerve with the PAS, even though I suggested a beginner try it and discard it if it doesn't seem to be useful. Of course, as I already said, there isn't going to be any useful discussion with true believers (which I am not), so it isn't clear that there is any point in me responding.

Still, I'll give it a try.

1. Because of the length of time I've been at it, chances are that I've done more with a lot less than most of the respondents, so there's no need to lecture me about gadgets and doo-hickies, or pretend from no evidence beyond personal observation that the issue has to do with regional preferences. And just for the record, the only thing on my harness at the gym is a belay device.

In any case, I'm interested in what makes the most logical sense, not what the current fashion may be, so I don't care whether you see people using something or not. My feeling is that special-purpose items cross the doo-hickie line when they have a substantial range of different applications making things safer or faster or both, and so are not all that special-purpose after all. I think a PAS lands in this category, but others may not see it that way.

2. Responses that suggest the PAS is only good for one thing reveal an misunderstanding of the applications. My post mentions three distinct uses, for example, and there are more that I might have said something about. Note that one thing I don't suggest is that it serve as the primary anchor connection.

3. There is no question that a PAS can and often is replaced by a 48" sling, either left girth-hitched to the harness or only installed when necessary. I think for a multipitch beginner, the PAS is preferable---in fact I think, to no one's surprise, that it is preferable for everyone---but in the end that issue will boil down to personal preference. The main improvement offered by the PAS is fine adjustability. Yes, you can do this with knots in the 48" sling, but these have to be tied and if weighted may be hard to untie. Then there is the issue of the safety of a knotted dyneema sling used as a tether. I'd at least recommend a nylon sling for this purpose.

Define shit show, csproul.

If the climber is a newb, it's gonna be messed up: deal with it, you chose to climb with a newb.

If the organization or lack thereof doesn't suit you: you may very well just be far too damn anal, unless it was stated beforehand that we are speed climbing or we are racing sunset on a 15 pitch alpine climb, etcetera.

This "rule" is ripe for dbag abuse.

This is why there is one rule, for me: be a decent human being.

I dunno, something about these "rules" really rub me the wrong way. I know the intent was in the right place, but...

If I feel like you are giving me a test against a set of arbitrary (and personal!) rules when we climb: oh hell no, yuck. No thanks.

Bill Kirby wrote:East coast climbs are closer to the road. BS! I've been everywhere man, I've been everywhere and there's climbs 20 minutes from the car and are the ones hours from anything in every state.

says the guy with 3 belay pieces, a prussic, cordalette and a PAS at the gym ;)

honestly though, the majority of crags that the majority of climbers go to in the NE are within 15 minutes of the car, that cannot be denied. If you hike 20 minutes you will be crossing a road with a Dunkin Donuts a few blocks down.

Morgan Patterson wrote:Ah Gunks climbers...

Damn prussiks ! Ever see a beginner prussik a free hanging rope, gripped out of their mind ? It's pretty ugly and I think irresponsible on the leaders part putting them in that position.

As for the racking on a sling..shit,,I still do that leading !

Miike wrote: says the guy with 3 belay pieces, a prussic, cordalette and a PAS at the gym ;) honestly though, the majority of crags that the majority of climbers go to in the NE are within 15 minutes of the car, that cannot be denied. If you hike 20 minutes you will be crossing a road with a Dunkin Donuts a few blocks down.

Haha! That reminds of when I used to leave my ice clippers on my harness year round.

That's the difference between east and west coast! NH has a million Dunkin Donuts and WA has a million Starbucks. For real though..

When I was new routing on the east coast, i carried wire brush always ..And quite a few crags are over 15 minute approach,,so excess gear didn't make the trip

teece303 wrote:Define shit show, csproul. If the climber is a newb, it's gonna be messed up: deal with it, you chose to climb with a newb. If the organization or lack thereof doesn't suit you: you may very well just be far too damn anal, unless it was stated beforehand that we are speed climbing or we are racing sunset on a 15 pitch alpine climb, etcetera. This "rule" is ripe for dbag abuse. This is why there is one rule, for me: be a decent human being. I dunno, something about these "rules" really rub me the wrong way. I know the intent was in the right place, but... If I feel like you are giving me a test against a set of arbitrary (and personal!) rules when we climb: oh hell no, yuck. No thanks.

These are not "rules" per se, think of them guidelines. Taking out new climbers is not always easy. You could be enjoying a day of climbing things you want to climb with an equally strong partner. Or you can slow things down, take the time and effort to show a new person the ropes, but no mistake about it, it requires effort on the leader's part. Being a decent person goes both ways. These are a set of guidelines that will make multipitch climbing more enjoyable for the more experienced climber and increase your likelihood of a repeat invite. A new climber should welcome advice and knowledge imparted by the more experienced. And yes, this might include the suggestion that the climbing would go a lot more smoothly and efficiently if they'd be more organized while cleaning. If I bothered to take a multi-pitch Noob out and they were offended by the suggestion that they try to be better organized while cleaning in order to make things go more smoothly then, yeah...good riddance.