Gunks AAC campground update?

Ok, it was $70 for my first pass in 2000, and I got the biking add on for my wife and I. Which was another $30 total + her pass. I think it was under $150 for the year for two people to bike and ride.

Guess what,it was 80 in 2003 + the add ons. For $95 it INCLUDES the biking so... $80 + 15 =95... I'm not a math genius, but it looks like it's the same price... And for $95 it also includes horseback, which was another $15 in 2000.

Now many climbers don't do the horseback, but quite a few bike to sleepy hollow. So i consider the bike add on a bonus. I understand if you don't. But what about inflation over 15 years?

Overall the pass is identical to the rate in 2000 or slightly less when inflation is factored in.

It's a good deal. Time to move on to a real problem to bitch and moan about.

Happiegrrrl wrote: The one car per site thing I have to say... was not great design/planning.

What is the source for this "one car per site" thing? It doesn't make sense in terms of planning, and I've heard from two Gunks locals that it is two or site.

Good, we have the right numbers at least. I knew $90 in 2000 was incorrect.

It sure feels like every year [my truthiness is better than yours]. ;)

More butt hurt in getting the numbers right. I'll note the incorrect numbers were allowed to remain unchecked as long as they supported the pro-preserve mantra.

J. Serpico wrote:Time to move on to a real problem to bitch and moan about.

If the Preserve is really closing down Camp Slime to individual climbers, that's a step back, especially to those who don't have a car.

FWIW, since 2000, the annual pass rate has done no more than keep pace with inflation. It was $70 in 2000 ($40 general + $30 for climbing), see web.archive.org/web/2000062…, the cumulative rate of inflation from 2000 to 2015 has been 35.7%, and that makes the 2000 price equivalent, in current dollars, to $95.

The day fee has gone up. In 2000, it was $7 for the weekend (which is what affects most people, but there was a weekday rate of $5 for those who could manage that, see web.archive.org/web/2000062… . I couldn't determine and don't remember whether or not there was an elevated day fee for climbing then as there is now.). That $7 fee is equivalent to $9.50 in 2015 dollars, and the current fee for climbing is $17. However, this comparison would be wrong if there was an elevated climbing day fee in 2000.

Eric Engberg wrote:How much have alpine ski area lift tickets gone up, concert, movie, sporting event tickets? Recreational discretionary spending. Not exactly an earth shattering issue - especially when there are cheaper alternatives. Do you do the "it's not fair" whine about everything you think you can't afford?

This.

The walk-up window rate for a day of skiing at Vail is $145. If you buy on-line 14 days in advance, you can get a 4-day ticket for $596. Stowe in VT is $108.

A round of golf at Pebble Beach is $495 - which requires a 3-day minimum stay at their resort. Rooms start at $650/night.

Disney World Resort is now $105/day.

A cheap concert ticket in the top level of an arena is over $70; even club dates are $35+.

Annual pass for Eldorado Canyon CO is $70.

A day pass for cross country skiing at Sun Valley ID is $24

"Whaaaaa. It costs me $17 to climb at the Gunks with my $2000 worth of rope, harness, shoes, rack, and assorted other gear that's in my Lexus SUV."

But I want to climb at Skytop.....

Kevin Heckeler wrote:Good, we have the right numbers at least. I knew $90 in 2000 was incorrect. It sure feels like every year [my truthiness is better than yours]. ;) More butt hurt in getting the numbers right. I'll note the incorrect numbers were allowed to remain unchecked as long as they supported the pro-preserve mantra.

No, you're just not looking at reality. My #s weren't far off when I included the biking pass ($85 in 2000 vs $95 in 2015) but yours don't account for inflation.

Unfortunately, the preserve does provide services and upkeep. Those things require funds, and inflation impacts the buying power of the preserve. So fees have to increase. Even the wilderness areas in the New York State Forest Preserve require a budget for upkeep. And there are far fewer facilities or visitors impacting the land.

Too me, climbing at Mohonk is a simple decision. Either you are OK with paying to climb on private land or you aren't. if not, New York is an amazing state with thousands of free climbs and campsites. But to complain about what amounts to around $150 for a husband and wife to climb, hike, bike 365 days a year just seems incredibly petty.

Now the camping issue is a very real issue, and one that should be addressed by at least Mohonk, and possibly the DEC as overnight climbers reduce impact and increase revenue for the community.

Pnelson wrote: What is the source for this "one car per site" thing? It doesn't make sense in terms of planning, and I've heard from two Gunks locals that it is two or site.

From their site:

What is the parking like at the Gunks Campground?

Parking is limited. There is a one car per site rule. A limited amount of overflow parking is available at an additional charge. Free overflow parking is located at the Mohonk Preserve Visitors Center. This is a short walk to the campground.

J. Serpico wrote: No, you're just not looking at reality. My #s weren't far off when I included the biking pass ($85 in 2000 vs $95 in 2015)...

Sorry, I don't bike (at Mohonk) and don't personally know anyone who climbs and bikes there. It's obviously a big plus for you. Glad to hear it.

Don't know how this affects my being or not being in "reality". Understanding the basic laws of things, I would imagine us being able to communicate on this forum would mean Mountain Project opens some type of worm hole that allows for our realities to intersect?

Regarding inflation. I'm not an economist, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. Oh, and I have access to google. From what I read, not all things inflate at the same rate. As a matter of fact, most of the costs associated with the preserve's day to day activities do not increase at the peak rate of inflation [especially since their biggest 'industry asset' is an enormous wall that just sits there]. There's nominal material goods expense (for, say, manufacturing and/or distributing) and their work force very small (relative to, say, a factory). In fact, the argument being used to apply inflation to this particular situation appeared similar to some of the inflation fallacies I read on google.

But I didn't bring up inflation nor have I uttered one word in this thread about the fees being too low or high. Just want to make sure proper information and arguments are being made.

J. Serpico wrote:Now the camping issue is a very real issue, and one that should be addressed by at least Mohonk, and possibly the DEC as overnight climbers reduce impact and increase revenue for the community.

Indeed it is, and one even I was posting about waaay back on page one before Matt so rudely side tracked us.

Unfortunately the answers to that aren't easy and it could be construed as criticism of our Moholiness. Blasphemers beware. We should probably check with BigA to ensure it's proper topic material for the forum before we proceed.

Discuss what you want, but when you are done if Kevin you could please advise me on Kens Crack? It seems very R to me and I'm hoping you have some good gear beta...

BigA wrote:Discuss what you want, but when you are done if Kevin you could please advise me on Kens Crack? It seems very R to me and I'm hoping you have some good gear beta...

Stop being a baby and run it out. And bring small gear.

[that bottom is still scary though, I forgot about that whole conversation... how long ago was that thread?]

GabeO wrote: From their site: What is the parking like at the Gunks Campground? Parking is limited. There is a one car per site rule. A limited amount of overflow parking is available at an additional charge. Free overflow parking is located at the Mohonk Preserve Visitors Center. This is a short walk to the campground.

Damn, I guess I heard wrong.

The moral of the story is that y'all should just patronize the AAC's NRG campground instead. Our routes are harder and our campground more primitive, but hell, I'd take rednecks and barking dogs over uptight New Yorkers any day.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Stop being a baby and run it out. And bring small gear. [that bottom is still scary though, I forgot about that whole conversation... how long ago was that thread?]

First rule of Mountain Project (and Internet forums in general) any and all dumb or misinformed or simply disagreeable statements will forever be remembered and reminded.

Pnelson wrote: Damn, I guess I heard wrong. The moral of the story is that y'all should just patronize the AAC's NRG campground instead. Our routes are harder and our campground more primitive, but hell, I'd take rednecks and barking dogs over uptight New Yorkers any day.

So what you're saying is just climb in the Adirondacks? Check!

J. Serpico wrote: So what you're saying is just climb in the Adirondacks? Check!

Just be careful in May when the black flies occasionally drop the cows they're carrying!

Really. It's udder madness up there.

rgold wrote:Really. It's udder madness up there.

Yeah, we were there one spring and things got so bad we hoofed it out of there. Didn't have to ruminate on it much at all.

Marc801 wrote: Just be careful in May when the black flies occasionally drop the cows they're carrying!

You just have to know where to go. North Elba has a black fly abatement program, so areas like Chapel Pond are wonderful. Other areas, pretty bad. But it's usually not that long of a season. Usually all of June but gone by July.

Places I don't recommend, Wallface and Wilmington Notch during black fly season. You WILL be exsanguinated.

Or just climb in a head net and long sleeves and pants.