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3pt equalized anchor with limited extension

Original Post
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

Being kept inside by the rain yesterday and today, i've reading about and playing with 3pt anchor systems. although i'm sure i'm not the first to come up with this, i haven't seen it discussed yet so i figured i'd post it to watch it get torn to shreds by the people:

full set up- the bottom 4' sling masterpoint is optional

1 piece blown- zero extension

two pieces blown- about 1" extension

incase the pictures aren't clear enough, it's 3 modified sliding X's (limiter knots and less friction- i think john long termed it equalette) independently connecting each piece to the other two pieces.

it offers a nice range of load distribution yet keep extension very limited, requiring 2 pieces to blow before any extension occurs and even then it's a mere inch or so.
the downside is the amount of gear it requires: 3 shoulder length slings and 3 biners and optionally a double length sling to make a masterpoint. plus placements need to be fairly close or extended to be fairly close.

Obviously it isn't a solution to everything but rather another tool in your bag of tricks

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

It appears that you are making things more complicated for yourself. How much gear is needed to make an anchor?

In your first picture, you have a three arm anchor w/ masterpoint hanging from three black carabiners... do you need to do anything else? Up to you I guess. This one sling is already set up to distribute the load and have no extension if any one leg fails, while only taking seconds to build. The redundancy is built in

I'm not dissing on you experimenting, for I do it all the time, but my advice is to keep it more simple and easy to inspect.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

I'll remember that next time I'm belaying off a garage shelf.

Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67

If I came up to my partner and found this I would be pissed that they took 10 minutes and half the rack to rig it up.

An anchor that is both self-equalizing and has limited extension is of dubious utility. The only situation where it makes sense to worry about perfect equalization is when each piece of the anchor is poor and you think they might not bear the load individually. This is a situation that is nearly always avoidable. In this case, if one piece blows you are probably screwed regardless of extension.

Set 2 or 3 bomber pieces, rig a simple anchor with limited extension (standard cordellete, serial clove hitches with the rope, whatever), and don't worry about equalization.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
BigFeet wrote:I appears that you are making things more complicated for yourself. How much gear is needed to make an anchor? In your first picture, you have a three arm anchor w/ masterpoint hanging from three black carabiners... do you need to do anything else? Up to you I guess. This one sling is already set up to distribute the load and have no extension if any one leg fails, while only taking seconds to build. The redundancy is built in I'm not dissing on you experimenting, for I do it all the time, but my advice is to keep it more simple and easy to inspect.
Yes but the pre-equalized masterpoints have been proven to put almost all the load on 1 piece. i almost always have at least 3 shoulder slings at the end of each pitch so it is just an option. Why, if you have the gear, settle for something that has shitty load distribution when you could have both good load distribution and extremely limited extension (1 inch). Sure a standard cordalette will get the job done, but could that one piece hold a high factor fall?
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

overly complicated with no benefit ...

use a cord/sling .... or use the rope

KISS

folks out here who insist their fancy systems work are the ones taking 30+ min to build a gear anchor

;)

Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67
eli poss wrote:Why, if you have the gear, settle for something that has shitty load distribution when you could have both good load distribution and extremely limited extension (1 inch)
Because it doesn't matter and it takes a lot longer to set up and tear down.
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
bearbreeder wrote:overly complicated with no benefit ... use a cord/sling .... or use the rope KISS folks out here who insist their fancy systems work are the ones taking 30+ min to build a gear anchor ;)
the benefit is good load distribution. and it took me about 2 min to knot the slings and under a minute to clip the pieces. is 3 minutes worth the extra piece of mind that you have good load distribution?
Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67

Load distribution generally does not matter, as you should be setting anchor pieces that are individually sufficient.

6 extra minutes at each belay (set up and tear down) is in fact a big deal if you are climbing longer multi.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385
eli poss wrote: Why, if you have the gear,...
What if you need that gear further up the climb for something else? You'll kick yourself for using gear for something not needed while your partner is pissed below figuring out how to untie it all. That partner is going to be really pissed to come up to the next anchor and see you have no gear supporting his/her life.

Like I said, experiment all you like, for this is how you learn, but don't make things too difficult for yourself when you are playing with your life in a real situation.

Something to think about: Is this going to be too difficult to do when I'm tired, hungry, it is dark out, etc.?

Be safe out there, eli!
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
eli poss wrote: the benefit is good load distribution. and it took me about 2 min to knot the slings and under a minute to clip the pieces. is 3 minutes worth the extra piece of mind that you have good load distribution?
its irrelevant ... im willing to be that the load distribution in an actual pull test is quite poor ... you can ask jim titt to test the setup in exchange for beer money i suspect

how much multi have you actually done?


to put it simply anyone who climbs a lot of multi at a decent speed and competently would cringe at that setup

not only does it take up more gear, its complicated and prone to mistakes

its one thing to build an anchor in your nice warm home ... and another when yr 10 pitches up, its getting dark, cold and windy, youre shaking like a dog from that runnout pitch you just lead, and you used up all your gear as it was a rope stretcher

KISS ...

;)
Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

You mention that you "almost always have at least 3 shoulder slings at the end of each pitch", but this set-up appears to require 6 slings (or draws); one connected to each of the three pieces and three creating three sliding X's, and then finally the cordelette clipped to the X's?

For the record, I have often ended up without ANY extra slings at the end of a pitch. Maybe that means I should carry more slings, but I can safely say that I'm not going to start using this complicated setup.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

Have thick skin, eli.

If anything, what you are doing is figuring out what works and what does not. Keep asking questions, and keep practicing with your gear - you're doing a lot more than some and this can help keep you alive.

I'm still learning things, as I believe we all are, so keep at it.

Regards,

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

^ Damn! The boat anchor makes all the difference. Poor bastard, whomever brought that up.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

As Jim Titt and RGold said in the other thread about "equalized" anchors, these still do not equalize well unless your anchor arms are exactly the same length. In the real world they will never be the same length. And, as RGold keeps saying, load distribution is a better term as even these will not be anywhere near equalized. Good redundancy is probably more important than equalization in most cases. What you have here is a colossal waste of time and gear with little to no real world benefit.

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 342

WTH??? Just use a few clove hitches with your lead line or if you want to carry a cordalette use that. 8 biners and all that webbing could be put to use climbing. Look for ways to streamline not make things more complicated.

NateGfunk · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 50

I think (hope?) this is a joke.

StonEmber · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 35

I'd trust that boat anchor!

Jan Tarculas · · Riverside, Ca · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 917

go climb routes with bolted anchors like 90% of routes in red rocks. DONE

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Kiri Namtvedt wrote:You mention that you "almost always have at least 3 shoulder slings at the end of each pitch", but this set-up appears to require 6 slings (or draws); one connected to each of the three pieces and three creating three sliding X's, and then finally the cordelette clipped to the X's? For the record, I have often ended up without ANY extra slings at the end of a pitch. Maybe that means I should carry more slings, but I can safely say that I'm not going to start using this complicated setup.
this require 3 slings and the 4th acting as a cordelette is optional. those three slings at the top represent 3 pieces. who knows, maybe i carry too many draws and slings in the first place, but i'm more stubborn than a bull so that isn't likely to change. again, this is something likely to stay inside and not actually be used in the field but what the hell; it's raining outside and this is fun to think about.
Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317

Move somewhere it does not rain as much

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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