Softshell Thread

Yes I know there are softshell threads, even as recent as last month... So I realized that I have no idea what I am doing with winter layering, and that I don't know what a softshell is. But good news, I figured out no one else knows what a softshell is either. I'll try to be concise as possible here, but I always overthink things...

Asking a buddy about layering, I felt his softshell and it felt like a 'jacket'. What I climb in feels like a 'fleece'. He told me it's made with Schoeller fabric, such and such he likes it, breathes well, so this was my jumping off point.

I realized what I climb in is (I think) a 100wt Fleece, 90% polyester, 10% spandex. It's the EMS Ascent Polartec Powerstretch Full Zip Hoodie. So if it is 100wt, which is my best guestimate based on a backpackinglight thread comment, it is no wonder I am always wanting a little more insulation.

So from here I realize I want something that can shed water a slight bit better (maybe not even though because I have a badass hardshell), cut wind, and keep me a little bit warmer.

I have seen the R1 talked about extensively and I had this image that it was some super cool jacket, it seems its just a really typical stretch woven 200wt fleece? Must be you guys really love the stretch woven aspect??? That thing looks 'fleecey', surely the temp range where you climb with that as your outer is limited?

Oh and one last, I came across this: BD's interpretation of the softshell

Questions:
If I have an expensive gore hardshell, I think my $$ would be better served for a more breathable, less shell option, but I want a jacket that feels like a jacket, not a fleece, right or wrong?
If I love my 100wt fleece should I just be looking for a "windshirt"?
Been looking at the BDV Hoody, because it's 200wt and I'm thinking since it's Schoeller it will have a similar 'jacket' feel as my buddys' garb, how would this bridge the gap for me?
BD also offers a 80wt Alpine Start, schoeller, would pairing this with my fleece be a viable option, or just buying another like garment.
Do you guys know of other, now available, Schoeller jackets I should be looking at, would love a full zip.
Oh and realize Schoeller just means stretch-woven proprietary this, do you guys have an opinion on your proprietary stretch-woven source? Schoeller uses nylon, vs. Polartec, my currents' polyester, opinions?

I was thinking if I bought the BDV, layering per temp:

Hot Day (35-30°F) my 100wt fleece
Warm Day my 200wt Schoeller jacket
Cool Day 200wt schoeller and something
Cold day 100wt fleece mid and 200wt schoeller

Does this kind of junk make sense. I was reading about what a softshell is supposed to do and a blogger mentions its supposed to accomplish insul and semi-shell in one, so you don't have so many layers rubbing against each other, but invariably unless you buy 20 jackets, you're going to have multi-layers. What is your guys experience w/ all this?

Guess I need to goto stores and figure this out in person, god damn RI.

I have the Outdoor Research Alibi. It has a waterproof hood, shoulders, and the tops of the sleeve. everything else is a soft-shell. I mainly use it for ice climbing, and ski mountaineering. Perfect for Ice climbing since Im being dripped on but exerting quite a bit of energy.

It also has snow sleeves with a thumb loop (an inner liner starting mid forearm with thumb loops and a built in balaclava in the hood)

Just remember, the better it breathes the less water/windproof it will be. Don't expect the soft-shell to be as breathable as your fleece. But ti will definitely block wind and snow/drizzle better than your fleece.

I don't really understand what your post is getting at.

Here is what I think you want:

Marmot ROM Jacket. Cheep, blocks wind, breathable, very water-resistant (don't get wet in the winter or in light rain), and great all around. Ideal softshell in my mind. I've had one for three years, wear it year round and it still looks almost new. The only wear is on the velcro cuffs.

marmot.com/products/details…

Buy one.

I also have an OR Alibi and it sucks if you plan getting wet. Breathable yes, but the "waterproof" hood and shoulders soaked through in a late summer rainstorm. Left me cold and pissed.

Short Answer: THE BDV or equivalent is probably what you want and you'd wear it OVER a fleece or alone on warmer days. It is NOT 200wt (see below) although, you might still want 200wt under the shell for the cold days.

No average fleece is a "softshell" as is they provide little if any wind or precip protection.

An R1 is really 100wt "ish" if that because the grid pattern actually doesn't trap as much heat as plain jane 100wt fleece IME. Patagonia 100wt is the MicroD line (although you can get something from Costco or Old Navy that's damn close for $20) Your power stretch hoody is ~100wt and NOT Schoeller or really a shell at all. They're often called "hard face" fleece which is a bit confusing. Really all it means is the outer part of the fabric is smooth and has a tighter weave vs 200wt or say a furry R2.

The original "idea" of a soft-shell was some sort of hard face material that resisted wind and/or precip and also had a integral insulation layer as well. The term has been bastardized so much that pretty much ANYTHING that's "soft" gets lumped in these days. Early soft shells (that still have their place) were things like Marmot DriClime or RAB VapourRise setups where you had a light wind/water resistant layer with a light, fleece/wicking layer inside. As the concept grew you saw "hard faced" polartec fleece jackets as an all-in-one answer - Smooth and stretchy outer that resisted wind and water with (typically) ~200wt fleece. As the concept caught on you saw more diversification, usually with the lining being lightened to a "brushed lining" ala the Patagonia Guide jacket.

As time progressed, people bought in 100% to the "water resistant" yet very breathable soft shell concept but realized the all-in-one iterations weren't as versatile since you were stuck with one piece (i.e. one temp). So they split them in two; an outer resistant shell layer and then an inner warmth layer (typically fleece). Unlined or smooth interior soft shells are "single weave". Slightly heavier shells with a "Rough" interior are typically double weave. Once you get into brushed linings or fleece linings you're into the realm of heavier all-in-ones.

On the BD Chart, the Windstopper (or Powershield fleece) items are more like the early all-in-one concepts as where the Schoeller shells don't have much insulation value. Note that referring to Schoeller as "200wt" is incorrect for the most part as there's very little if any fleece like quality to the fabric. There are different weight of Schoeller (or whatever stretchy material there is) and that can vary from heavy jeans / carharts weight down to super light nearly wind shirt like materials. (Wind shirts, generally speaking, are made from very light materials that lack much stretch/durability. )

Getting to your questions on usage. The "older" style shoftshells with heavier linings are best used alone with a wicking base layer. You certainly can add more underneath them but then you run into issues with too many layers to get moisture moving. I've done a polypro base with a Powershield jacket many times and been quite happy. An r1 under the same is awesome as well. These are usually better in cold weather setups. If you anticipate more variability in your temps (cold mornings but warmer afternoons) going with a two piece setup is more versatile. You can tweak it more for the conditions. A light base layer, appropriate mid layer for the temps and then an "unlined" soft-shell on top allows you to strip either the shell or fleece to adjust.

The BDV is a good example of a "heavier" single weave soft-shell and quite versatile. The Alpine Start is a very lightweight single weave and bridges the gap between wind shirt and soft-shell. In years past, the Patagonia Simple Guide was another single weave style.

If you want to bump a small bit in warmth, double weave soft shells are excellent as well. Patagonia has their new All Free or Rab makes the excellent Sawtooth.

Beyond double weave soft shells you start getting into the lightly lined "classics" which will be heavier and have a light, brushed fleece lining.

I'm sure others can chime in for more examples from other companies. I just happen to have a lot of first hand experience with Patagonia, Rab and BD examples.

I've got some free time and I like gear, so I'll take a stab at the softshell question. Probably more than you want, but it'll help you understand a lot of the marketing terms and wade through manufacturers claims and buzzwords. First off, here's some background on fabrics:

Terminology:
Waterproof: Able to hold at least 10000mm of water on its surface without leaking. Basically, it keeps the rain out.
Wind proof: Doesn't let air pass through (GoreTex) or very little (Windstopper)
Breathable: Confusingly not the same as Wind proof. It's a measure of how much moisture will move from one side of the fabric to the other. However, ability of air to move through the fabric greatly increases breathability (which makes sense intuitively).
Seam Taping: The best waterproof fabric won't keep you dry if it's punctured by stitches holding your clothing together. Seam tape (usually PU) prevents leaking. However, any seam taped areas are also inherently non-breathable.

Years of marketing have told everyone they want breathable. However, the fabric isn't magic. It doesn't know which way is inside vs outside and it can't make moisture flow from low concentration to high concentration. If the fabric is wet (ie from rain), it won't magically transfer your sweat to the outside.

There are a variety of different manufacturers and fabric types. Here's the breakdown of fabric types:
Hardshell: Contains a waterproof membrane, usually a layer of PTFE (teflon) or polyurethane. Can't stretch and are crinkly due to membrane
Softshell with membrane: This membrane isn't waterproof, but also can stretch. The membrane lets it be fairly water and wind resistant though. "Wind Proof" softshells almost always have a membrane.
Softshell without membrane: Very breathable, but still has the jacket like feel. Can be very stretchy, but durable and somewhat water and wind repellant.
Fleece: Not a shell of any sort. Doesn't really belong with the above. Really just insulation. Not abrasion resistant. Wind cuts right through it (but that means it's super breathable) and it soaks up water like a sponge. Usually polyester.
Hi Loft insulation: Down/Primaloft/Polarguard etc. Not really relevant to your question, but fleece is more of in this category as an insulator, not a shell.

Each clothing company uses fabrics from just a few reputable fabric manufacturers (Polartec, Gore, Pertex, Schoeller, Primaloft, etc.), as well as no-name but similar fabrics that they rebrand (ie H2NO, HyVent, MemBrain) for their cheaper apparel.
Each of the fabric manufacturers also makes a variety of very different fabrics. Gore makes Hardshell and Softshell with membrane fabrics. Polartec makes fleece, softshell, and softshell with membrane, etc.
Schoeller makes a hardshell material too, so just saying Schoeller isn't always enough. And polartec isn't just fleece.

Tom Sherman wrote: I realized what I climb in is (I think) a 100wt Fleece, 90% polyester, 10% spandex. It's the EMS Ascent Polartec Powerstretch Full Zip Hoodie. So if it is 100wt, which is my best guestimate based on a backpackinglight thread comment, it is no wonder I am always wanting a little more insulation. So from here I realize I want something that can shed water a slight bit better (maybe not even though because I have a badass hardshell), cut wind, and keep me a little bit warmer.

I think you hit the nail on the head here: You have to decide what you want first. The perfect garment doesn't exist. Are you regularly cold, or just cold when the wind kicks up? How about with your hard shell on?
Softshells are a luxury item, really. You don't need them to keep dry, you buy them because you think you'll be comfortable in them in most conditions.
Here's some other questions to ask yourself if you're cold.
Maybe you just need a warmer fleece under your hardshell? Maybe you need to put your hardshell on? Maybe you don't put your hardshell on because it doesn't stretch, is crinkly, or it doesn't breath well? If you answered yes to the last one, you should look into softshells, otherwise, maybe they aren't the solution.

Tom Sherman wrote: I have seen the R1 talked about extensively and I had this image that it was some super cool jacket, it seems its just a really typical stretch woven 200wt fleece? Must be you guys really love the stretch woven aspect??? That thing looks 'fleecey', surely the temp range where you climb with that as your outer is limited?

I'm one of the aforementioned R1 lovers, and it's probably not what you're looking for. It's just a fleece. Really another luxury item, but good at what it does. People like it mainly because the fabric is a grid of thicker (maybe 200 wt?) squares on a thinner (<100 wt) face fabric. This means it breathes absurdly well when exposed to air or wind for highly aerobic activities since there's so little fabric between the squares. But when you cover it with another layer it's much warmer than you might expect, since all there's now air trapped in pockets between the squares insulating you.
That, and lots of other nice little features for temperature regulation.
But I digress. We're talking about softshells, not fleeces.

Tom Sherman wrote: Oh and one last, I came across this: BD's interpretation of the softshell

BD is pretty much right, although the differences in fabrics will be much more extreme and the differences in clothing will be much smaller in real life. GoreTex is a hardshell. Windstopper is a softshell with membrane. Schoeller is a softshell without a membrane (at least we can assume; again, Schoeller makes more than one kind of fabric).

Tom Sherman wrote: Questions: If I have an expensive gore hardshell, I think my $$ would be better served for a more breathable, less shell option, but I want a jacket that feels like a jacket, not a fleece, right or wrong?

See the questions above. Maybe you don't want a softshell at all.

Tom Sherman wrote: If I love my 100wt fleece should I just be looking for a "windshirt"? Been looking at the BDV Hoody, because it's 200wt and I'm thinking since it's Schoeller it will have a similar 'jacket' feel as my buddys' garb, how would this bridge the gap for me? BD also offers a 80wt Alpine Start, schoeller, would pairing this with my fleece be a viable option, or just buying another like garment.

Assuming we're talking about climbing, you probably don't want a windshirt. Windshirts aren't usually durable enough for regular climbing use. Layering is a good idea. One caveat below.

Tom Sherman wrote: Do you guys know of other, now available, Schoeller jackets I should be looking at, would love a full zip. Oh and realize Schoeller just means stretch-woven proprietary this, do you guys have an opinion on your proprietary stretch-woven source? Schoeller uses nylon, vs. Polartec, my currents' polyester, opinions?

There's a lot of fabrics to choose from. FYI.Most shells fabrics (Polartec included) will be nylon. Most insulation will be polyester.
Polartec NeoShell and PowerShield have been getting some good press lately.

Tom Sherman wrote: I was thinking if I bought the BDV, layering per temp: Hot Day (35-30°F) my 100wt fleece Warm Day my 200wt Schoeller jacket Cool Day 200wt schoeller and something Cold day 100wt fleece mid and 200wt schoeller Does this kind of junk make sense. I was reading about what a softshell is supposed to do and a blogger mentions its supposed to accomplish insul and semi-shell in one, so you don't have so many layers rubbing against each other, but invariably unless you buy 20 jackets, you're going to have multi-layers. What is your guys experience w/ all this? Guess I need to goto stores and figure this out in person, god damn RI.

I declare that blogger to be full of shit. You are right in thinking about layering. I'm of the opinion the best soft shells have no insulation, so that the choice of layers is left up to you.

Finally to throw one more wrench into the works, you can't compare warmth of a 200wt Schoeller jacket to your 100wt fleece. Your fleece puts that 100wt towards fluffy warmth. The jacket uses its weight allowance on closely woven fibers to provide protection, not loosely woven fibers to provide warmth.

Also, frequently, a shell face fabric is combined with an insulated layer in the same garment. This is more common for ski and casual wear than climbing garments though since climbers have much larger variances in exertion and want to be able to control warmth by layering.

Cheers,
Dan

Hey Dan & Matt!

I realize I didn't give you the applause you guys needed. Thank you very much for the history lesson, fabric talk, layering logistics, and the extra analysis per my situation! Thank you! Also I didn't have the attention span to get a succint essay in here, so I'm kind of all over the place w/ my thoughts.

I ended up buying a Rab Raptor, new for $74, figured I can't beat that. I am a little skeptical about the fabric blend as it is Matrix DWS fabric: 225g/m2, 53% nylon, 38% polyester, 9% spandex. Looks like it will be both slightly heavier than BVD both per material and overrall, but what I was really wondering is your guys thoughts on Polyester in a softshell. Seems like a lot of the garments I was looking at use strictly nylon/elastane blends and this one is a three part blend. We shall see, also read a really interesting review about how polyester moves water (through fabric) and nylon spreads water (on face to dry). I know this is all highly idyllic crap, but really interested to see if this becomes a 'specialty, do it all' piece as you'll described. Previously I was thinking that nylon is going to be more like a softshell product (windcutter), where polyester is more of an insulation layer?? But I saw quite a few fully polyester construction softshell products too. Is the material a big part of the performance or can both of those be used to perform the same way with the variance being how the manufacturer weaves the blend?

Do I understand 100wt. vs. 200wt. correctly? This is a measure of grams/m^2? I guesstimated this based on a bunch of stuff. So "Materials : Schoeller® stretch-woven nylon (200 g/m2, 93% nylon, 7% elastane) with NanoSphere Technology" & "Body: 6.8-oz Polartec® Power Dry® 93% polyester (41% recycled)/7% spandex. Inner collar, underarms and cuffs: 5.4-oz Polartec® Power Dry® 92% polyester (54% recycled)/8% spandex." (6.8oz equals 193grams)These are both 200wt. products? Yes I understand take w/ a grain of salt, noted your comment about R1 grid design.

I think my fleece is a hard face fleece (kind-of), and this is what confused me. Seems like a hard face, stretch-woven fleece is what you want for climbing because of the versatility of using that as your outer, when conditions allow.
It sounds like the best versatility is through single weave/ or single function pieces. I.e. I have a hardshell to cut water, i'd like a softshell to cut wind, and I have fleece to cut temp. And obviously these can be used interchangeably/ together/ separate etc. But buying a "heavier" double weave softshell just seems like a waste to me, too restrictive of motion and heat, but also why do I need it, I have the hardhsell? Looks like this is what your advocating matt, buying a wind layer. Also sounds like at some point I might need to invest in a beefier stretch-woven fleece and start actually thinking which one I am taking with me before going out the door.

Dan, your guys questions really got me thinking, "What do I want." "Maybe I need to put my hardshell on" (LOL, think you hit the nail on the head). A little self-reflection now tells me. I end up using either my puffy or hardshell to beef up my underrated fleece and keep me warm. I have a tendency to neglect using my hardshell because it's ok when I climb, it is a bear/ swimming pool to hike in, but a PITA in a group setting to strip on/off from under my harness when we're cragging and moving from climb to climb. My puffy is easily stripped when hiking, but I'm still underprotected from the temps, so it seems I'll climb with it and be too warm on a cold day, or climb without it and be too cold on a warm day. So what I want is too beef up my insul, hope to cut wind more, and have an all day piece that I can hike and climb in. That way the only things coming on or off are my puffy for standing around, or my hardshell for water/ extreme wind. <<This seems obvious, dunno why I had to be kicked in the head to figure this out.... got it now.

I am regularly cold (typical days), or I am having my puffy on when I don't need it and regularly hot. Usually great with my hardshell on. (I call it green-housing my heat in, when I'm under-layered) Why I don't use my hardshell as often is because when I move with it, hiking, I get super hot.
Will look into those other proprietaries...

Ahah, and Dan I see what you mean in all this 'weight' stuff, effectively it would be like trying to compare down to nylon. So you're saying softshell for wind/water regulation as a wear all day item, w/ some thermal capacity but most thermal protection being achieved by my fleece layer underneath. You're advocating single weave as well sounds like...

Thanks again guys. What I got most out of this is, "What do I want"/ "What am I looking for" and that really made me realize. For me, I want an all-day piece so the only thing coming on or off is my puffy, a piece that is slightly warmer than my fleece, able to cut wind, trimmer than my puffy so I can access gear on my harness well, and that takes good photos! Now I am just really interested to see what the Raptor feels like. I don't want it to feel like a jacket but rather just another light covering. We shall see. That's why I really liked the B.V.D. look how light that thing looks on the guy's figure:

Thanks for a great thread. 

Anyone have insight into the current version of Gore Windstopper? I tried it the first season it was introduced (at the risk of dating myself) and it was useless - thin fleece with a membrane that was neither warm nor stretchy nor weather resistant. 

I have loved the schoeller garments I've used, and love my old Arcterryx Gamma Salopettes. But a lot has changed and I'm curious about the current generation of fabrics and layering strategies. Looking to this for waterfalls and alpine. 

FWIW, I'm looking at the OR Ferrosi, Mammut Ultimate Alpine SO Hoody, Mammut BASE jump SO hoody. 

mike again wrote:

Thanks for a great thread. 

Anyone have insight into the current version of Gore Windstopper? I tried it the first season it was introduced (at the risk of dating myself) and it was useless - thin fleece with a membrane that was neither warm nor stretchy nor weather resistant. 

I have loved the schoeller garments I've used, and love my old Arcterryx Gamma Salopettes. But a lot has changed and I'm curious about the current generation of fabrics and layering strategies. Looking to this for waterfalls and alpine. 

Can't say I've tried the gore windstopper or any "membrane" soft shell since back then either.

Being in WA I've found that drying time of a garment is just as important as any other factor. To that end I've found the feather weight softshell/heavy windshirt category (6-8oz). Specifically the BD alpine start with the light single weave schoeller (which is nylon, not poly as it reported when released). That has about the same wind protection as the ferossi IMO but I found a drastically faster drying time.

I used the alpine start over other layers on a few pissing waterfall pitches last year, the fabric got wet but didn't soak through my insulation ever. Throw a puffy over at the next belay and it's totally dry at the start of the next pitch. Similar experience ski touring with it in the awkward 28-34 degrees and nuking wet snow days, it can wet out on the way up and dry out mostly on the ski down. I layer a grid fleece and hardshell over the top of it for the ski down.

Agreed. I bought a couple Windstopper softshell garments over the years & even though they were wicked comfortable, they're too heavy & they didn't dry until two days after use. 

+1 for Alpine Start Hoody.  I wear that damn thing for everything: Mountain biking, mountain hiking, climbing, etc.  I haven't used it on ice, but I wouldn't hesitate if I somehow left my Alpha FL at home.

Nick's absolutely on-point.  The Alpine Start dries within a half-hour under a puffy.  A lot of guys like the Squamish Hoody for all these reasons too.  If I were to buy another sofshell for winter/ice, It'd be on the thinner end of the spectrum & light as winter temperatures dictate. Too bad Black Diamond doesn't make the BDV Hoody anymore.  On that note, I wish the Gamma LT Hoody wasn't so heavy. 

Fascinating. I have a Squamish Hoody, which I love - it is always on my harness for rock climbing, but hadn't thought of it as standing up to 'frozen' waterfalls in terms of water resistance. And it's surprisingly durable for its weight but feels a little fragile for ice and alpine abuse as a main piece to wear? No? 

Sounds like you carry a hardshell around as well, Nick at least. I can see that, if the alpine start is anything like the Squamish I wouldn't expect it to stay dry for skiing (another intended use). Hm. So, R1 plus Squamish for the ups. Belay jacket over it all to dry it all out between pitches or at transitions. Carry a shell for skiing down or... 

This isn't all that different than how I have always layered, I guess, which is (forgive me), R1 or some such with hardshell plus belay jacket. Softshell would gives more breathability, and change focus from keeping the moisture out during activity to letting it out during, and then letting layers dry while stopped. I may need to try a few and see what works for me. 

Thank for the thoughts. Keep 'em coming.

mike again wrote:

Fascinating. I have a Squamish Hoody, which I love - it is always on my harness for rock climbing, but hadn't thought of it as standing up to 'frozen' waterfalls in terms of water resistance. And it's surprisingly durable for its weight but feels a little fragile for ice and alpine abuse as a main piece to wear? No? 

Sounds like you carry a hardshell around as well, Nick at least. I can see that, if the alpine start is anything like the Squamish I wouldn't expect it to stay dry for skiing (another intended use). Hm. So, R1 plus Squamish for the ups. Belay jacket over it all to dry it all out between pitches or at transitions. Carry a shell for skiing down or... 

This isn't all that different than how I have always layered, I guess, which is (forgive me), R1 or some such with hardshell plus belay jacket. Softshell would gives more breathability, and change focus from keeping the moisture out during activity to letting it out during, and then letting layers dry while stopped. I may need to try a few and see what works for me. 

Thank for the thoughts. Keep 'em coming.

Yeah Mike, my post may not have been clear since I covered both ice and touring. For ice climbing most days I won't bring a hardshell, if I do it's typically because it's a warmer day over mid 20s and it's an emergency layer. That's just 6oz ultralight rain shell.

For ice over the mid teens my setup last year was a mesh tank (for cycling), very thin merino t (rab meco 120), grid fleece (be coefficient), windshirt (alpine start), belay puffy (bd stance parka).
When temps dropped lower I added a pataguchi nano air light hybrid over the fleece. For stupid cold of -20 raising to -10 (should have stayed home) I swapped the grid fleece for a warmer pile fleece. 

For ski touring I still bring a hardshell mid winter. It's more about abrasion resistance than anything else, I'll ride a lot of tight trees and the 20-30 denier shell fabrics of puffy jackets will get ripped open, the hardshell is just a bit burlier. Also a lot of the touring I do is sled accessed and it's nice to have the full wind block. 

My layering system touring changes often for weather, but typically it will be the mesh first layer, a thin base layer, and then a windshirt on the tour up (condition dependent). For the ride down I'll throw on a fleece or thin puffy over the top and the hardshell. If we're above treeline I may just use a thin puffy.
If it's not breezy or snowing I'll forgo the windshirt and enjoy more breathability. That's only about half the time at best in winter. The whole windshirt idea for touring up was because I got tired of having to strip off a hardshell at the top transition, add insulation, throw shell back on. I wanted to just throw something over the top and go. I splitboard with mainly ski partners, so any way I can make the transitions faster/smoother makes me happy.