Petzl Laser and Laser Lites or Black Diamond Express?

Sally G see my post on 15 January....ice plugs are a serious problem with the Laser in the right conditions.

Alright, now I've got to post. I've had no, zero, nada problems with my speed lights in any condition. Sally was climbing the same routes as us yesterday and had her problem. One of my climbing partners had an issue yesterday as well with my screw. My question is, what am I doing differently? Couldn't tell ya. We discussed it for a bit yesterday and came to no conclusion.
Another note on the speed lights, they seem to melt out quicker than the stainless screws. Noticed it briefly last summer and again yesterday. Both times conditions were super warm.

A theory on the stickiness: it happens in wet or slushy ice (some liquid water present) when the deeper ice is significantly below freezing temperature. And it's due to the much higher thermal conductivity of Aluminum compared to stainless -- about 15 times higher.

If ice and liquid water are both present, in contact with each other (technically, in thermal equilibrium), then at that location the temperature must be 32 exactly. The water doesn't freeze immediately because it still needs to give up some heat (called the latent heat or heat of fusion). If you place a 15 degree screw in 32 degree water, some of the water will freeze by giving up heat, and the screw will become warmer.

Thermal conductivity describes how quickly heat can spread out through the material or be channeled to a colder place. So if you place a screw through wet ice and into colder ice deeper, heat will flow from the liquid water (a little of which turns to ice), through the screw, and out into the deep cold ice (which becomes a little warmer, but not enough to melt). And if your screw is made of aluminum, 15 times as much heat will flow per second, and 15 times as much liquid water will freeze to ice, as compared to stainless.

That's the theory anyway. Those of you who've experienced it, what were conditions like? A wet or slushy spot despite overall low temperatures? (or, I would think, low temps the night before or preceding few days would leave deeper ice still cold).

This would also explain faster melting out, as the aluminum conducts heat from above-freezing air or a sun-warmed hanger faster and deeper into the ice.

Kevin, makes sense to me....my conditions were cold, say 20 but with moisture present in a horizontal placement. Screw instantly clogged with ice and would not go in, so I pulled a BD screw off the rack and it sunk fine. Still love those laser lites for their weight and quick and easy bite....but can you really complain about a BD screw?....it is a great piece of gear too, each having their own characteristics.

I have 10 of the steal lazer speeds. I dry and oil them after every use. The coating on the teath is coming off the 10,17 and 21cm but not the 13s. This started happening after very little use. I have only placed the 21cm once. Has anyone heard back from petzl on this issue? Should I bother contacting them?

Yes

Seems like the plating on the Laser Speed screws (at least mine) is fairly thin and week. It's flaking off the tips of my screws and they have only been placed 3-4 times. Not impressed with the durability. The BDs I own have never had this issue. Otherwise, the Laser Speeds are sweet. Too bad. I'll be contacting Petzl.

looked at a friend of mine`s lasers, yup, the teeth coating was coming off nearly new screws.

I have the same problem with my 21cm Speed Light. Sticky and notchy and really hard to screw in, tho it havent clogged up completely, yet. No more lights for me. On the positive side it is really quick to get started, it has got a really good hanger and works really well if you are only going to use it once between drying. I see some have a theory that it has something to do to the superior conductivity of alu compared to steel, if that is the case, then the e-climb Klau would have the same problem. I have never heard of anyone with the Klau having this issue, but I would really like to know if anybody have experienced this with the Klau or not. The klau have been on the market for a long time, so there should be someone with this information in here.

Luc wrote:looked at a friend of mine`s lasers, yup, the teeth coating was coming off nearly new screws.

I sent mine back to Petzl. What a waste of time. Their answer:

I double checked on how this steel is finished. There is no extra anodization or coating applied to these; it is just the steel you are seeing being abraded. These marks you are seeing are normal, and will not affect the performance of the screws. This could happen at any point, whether that be the first use or 100th.

Next time I'll just go with bd screws they don't show wear and corrosion after one use

That sucks Pat!

I spoke with Petzl way back last winter about the teeth on the Laser Lites. The guy was a little stand offish at first but said he would replace the screws after seeing the pictures I sent them. I never sent them back because I never had one stick other than the 21. I was building V threads the two times the 21 stuck so I said F it.

I wonder if Petzl replaced so many screws they're getting stricter on what they take back..

How many of the Speed Lights (with the orange aluminum tube) did you see?

Extrablue wrote:A lot. That's the way to go. Let's you carry a full rack without the weight. We had 5, the guys on the French Route had more, most guided crews had at least one.

That doesn't sound like a lot.

Frankly there is a better Aluminum screw on the market.

Bill Kirby wrote:That sucks Pat! I spoke with Petzl way back last winter about the teeth on the Laser Lites. The guy was a little stand offish at first but said he would replace the screws after seeing the pictures I sent them. I never sent them back because I never had one stick other than the 21. I was building V threads the two times the 21 stuck so I said F it. I wonder if Petzl replaced so many screws they're getting stricter on what they take back..

Update.

After some back and forth I did get a new set of screws in the mail from Petzl! (I still do like them a little better then the bds). And a set of nomics as a wedding gift from my friends. Now all I need is some ice!

Good to hear Pat!

Sooo I need to build a rack from scratch ... do I go with Petzl or BD as a base? I was thinking Petzl, but this thread has me second guessing that idea.

Justin S wrote:Sooo I need to build a rack from scratch ... do I go with Petzl or BD as a base? I was thinking Petzl, but this thread has me second guessing that idea.

Sooooo.. Try both and go with what screw you like best. Don't listen to people on here. If you got the scratch, rack up with a set of Laser Lites and tell me you're worried about the teeth. If having the feeling of nothing on your harness doesn't do it for you go lead a pitch of grade 4 with those Laser Lites. If using no effort what so ever doesn't do it for you... Listen to naysayers and buy BD Express.

You won't be able to professionally sharpen the laser lites much, probably a single run if a tooth is mangled.

I don't really mind the discoloration. It's purely cosmetic. It's not rust or corrosion. It's an annoyance in the sense that I spent all this money on a new rack of screws and after 1-2 days they look like shit, but the truth is they're still razor sharp and in my humble opinion, I think they're the best screw on the market. I say that having owned (or at least climbed a bunch with) Grivel 360 and Helix, BD Express, Camp Radion, and the funky E-climb screws.

I'm not planning on building the rack out of the laser lites, the discussion here has convinced me that's a bad idea. Deciding between laser speeds vs expresses.