Mountain Project Logo

cochise development

Jefe Bret Harte · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 35
Guy Keesee wrote: If you feel so strongly about 5.11 slab pucker fests, why don't you go put up a "well bolted" climb on the same general piece of stone.... ???? ...and many climbers would applaud your efforts.....
Keesee- first Stronghold thread? ;-)
Robbie Mackley · · Tucson, AZ · Joined May 2010 · Points: 85

Preface:
I have done exactly ZERO of these routes. However, Cochise Stronghold is a very special place to me.
It was one of the first places I ever climbed (a whopping five years ago). I was taken on a day trip to the popular and well bolted sport crags at Sweet Rock and the Isle of You. At that time it was made clear to me that " the Stronghold, outside of a handful of bolted/sport crags, is NOT an area for beginners and/or casual cragging.
I took this "warning" as a suggestion that I should expand MY skill set, to meet the challenges at hand. This "skill set" includes, not only gear placement/anchor skills and climbing technique itself, but also better map/compass skill, better route finding, down climbing, self rescue skills, and most importantly, THE MENTAL CAPACITY to deal with a situation, when things get hard or scary or down right fucked up, competently.
That said:
Have any of you "pro-retro bolt" climbers ever considered that these (likely multi-pitch) routes we're put up "ground up"? Therefore, ANY bolts were drilled on LEAD, and most likely on STANCE (and depending on the route possibly by hand). No stance to drill (especially if a powere drill was used) usually means NO STANCE TO CLIP. Why have a bolt that everyone guns past, or worse uses as a foot hold, in their attempt to get to the next stance?
Maybe this is a stupid assumption/question but, knowing what goes at 5.9 in the area, the "5.11/slab puckerfests" being complained about seem to imply fairly bleak climbing with little chance for rest/stances.
Keep the Stronghold for the strong!
-Mackley

Robbie Mackley · · Tucson, AZ · Joined May 2010 · Points: 85

Here's an idea:
Why don't the climbers who want these routes made safer;
1. Get to the top of the formation in question
2. Rap the route in question
3. Tape a $10 bill to every spot you think could use a bolt.
4. Post a complaint on MP.com when your money is taken and the route stays the same.
At least you'd then know that there are climbers willing to climb the route, AS IT SITS, just to booty your cash.
Be safe dudes.
-Mackley

Greg Maschi · · Phoenix ,Az · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

Does anyone know what the policy on bolting is in Cochise, specifically is there a ban on power tools? Been there on several occasions and have done some ridiculously well bolted slab climbs, that must have been bolted top down .2 climbs come to mind where easily 1/2the number of bolts used would still keep the route safe, peacemaker and warpaint , were these routes retro bolted ?I am assuming warpaint is an older route as it is listed in the Kerry guide.Geir wanna chime in with some history, truly interested in this controversy, also assuming Scott Ayers is a player in the explosion of bolts.I sure do love the place my favorite spot I have climbed in yet ,amazing and beautiful area.Really would love to know more of the story on this "bolt war".

Robbie Mackley · · Tucson, AZ · Joined May 2010 · Points: 85

Greg,
I think the question of routes on the "Sheepshead" and the routes in question on this thread come down to a classic apples vs oranges answer.
I don't know how those bolted lines were established, but it would make sense to me that, IF they were bolted top down, it would likely be on aid, from existing routes and/or natural/traditional pro placed above via the existing routes /protection options available.
If this assumption is true, it is still an A&O situation due to the fact that we'd then be discussing the tactics used to establish NEW routes, and not the ethics of a retro job on an OLD route.
-Mackley

Joe G · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 0

If he published the routes we wouldn't be having this conversation. You can't run around putting routes up on every piece of rock out there , not put any info out on the route and then get mad and chop when someone adds a bolt. The bolt may have been added from a ground up ethic before DDC put his first bolt in , with no idea if the route has been completed or abandoned . Sounds to me like these guys are trying to be resposible . No route should be retro bolted for the sake of saftey if it was done ground up and claimed. I don't think many of the people on this thread grasp just how many routes he put up. Better yet make it a wilderness and we don't have to worry about a ton of new routes. But to the guys going out there and putting up new backcountry routes ground up, good for ya !

Good times,
Joe

Robbie Mackley · · Tucson, AZ · Joined May 2010 · Points: 85

So, now, with the advent of the internet and published guide books, those of us that strive to climb traditional routes, established AND PUBLISHED (through tradiditional process, I.E. WORD OF MOUTH) are shit outta luck?
Just because a route isn't published here, on the sacred MP.com, or in the "book" many rely on doesn't mean it never happened.
Get fuckin' real.
If you really feel it should be here, climb it and post it.
Maybe sometimes people FA routes that THEY feel don't need numerous repeats, so they don't post them here.
Maybe it's not easy to bolt them to be "safe", or just not worth blowing out the area. I don't know.
What I do know, is that changing someones routes can change the demographic of an entire area, in either direction. I personally DONT want that for Cochise.
-Mackley

cavemonkey · · AK · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 0

Volounteers for neighborhood watch? I'll be there 16-21 and don't mind looking after the place.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
skine wrote:Volounteers for neighborhood watch? I'll be there 16-21 and don't mind looking after the place.
and the posse starts to form

burn the witch! burn the witch!
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
Tim Lutz wrote: That the situation warrants a discussion, not dismissed as a foregone conclusion by armchair ball cupping AZ hardmen.
OK, Lets discuss.

do you have some criteria for just exactly what is safe? Serious question.
Manny Rangel · · PAYSON · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,788

I think they brought up a legitimate question. I've explored the area and found out that I wasn't first more often than not. I was glad to have the experience.

I've been at this game a long time and had already heard of DDC so I assumed I was lucky to repeat his route, maybe. Then I moved on.

That was the nature of all Cochise climbing at one time. Not anymore. It's just different now, not better or worse.

Hopefully Geir and Scott will resolve some of these issues as they share more and more information. But if you see a bolt or an odd anchor, ask yourself if it's just possible someone else was there. If the answer is yes, go for it or leave it but don't change it to suit your level of adventure.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
jefe wrote: Keesee- first Stronghold thread? ;-)
Yes, I have only been there a few times, its a long ass drive for me, but I was most humbled by the climbs. I salute the Arizona climbers who put up that place.

Hard ball for sure, sort of like the Needles meets the Desert.
Manny Rangel · · PAYSON · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,788

I missed the last Granitica Syndicato festival but last year's was a great one to attend.

Both Steve Grossman and Chip Chace, when talking about a couple of their first ascents, mentioned that the routes in question could use bolts. Chip said that when he was doing this particular ascent he didn't know how to stop and bolt so he fired it instead. Looking back he thought that maybe it would be ok to add a couple of bolts.

I'm not going to do that but maybe it was the mellowing of age and the infusion of wisdom with the years and increasing brittleness of old bones. I don't know.

I do know I have gone back and added bolts to some of my older routes. But it is a slippery slope to pick and choose.

Jack Quarless · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0

The arrogance of lazy fat and weak old men is truly evident on this thread, as is the fact that the future of climbing is held hostage by the bravado of the past. I have never see tough guys cry so much because they have to share, boo hoo you big babies, that's life.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0

Ken Nichols thinks he is improving things too with his antics. Exactly the same mentality - "I know what's best for all" and "I'll fix up what has been done wrong by others". Just create your own new climbs - what's done is done. If you don't want to do something the way it was done - don't. But don't alter it into something more your liking. Create your own new route. You might get satisfaction if 1000x as many do your new dumbed down route then do the old test piece. It might be worth noting that 1 ascent of the old test piece will be 1000x more memorable, satisfying and worthy of respect then any send of your new sanitized test piece. I think even members of the instant gratification set have some climbs that are more memorable then others - typically ones that had a some of everything - difficulty, scariness, etc. May your development should be more on a personal level so you can add some of those to your memory bank as opposed to more send-em and forget-em overbolted creations.

MattB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 55
Sir chuffs alot wrote:The arrogance of lazy fat and weak old men is truly evident on this thread, as is the fact that the future of climbing is held hostage by the bravado of the past. I have never see tough guys cry so much because they have to share, boo hoo you big babies, that's life.
Strange logic here above.

It seems fat and lazy to need to add bolts to climb some 9's and 10's

there must be 500 super safe sport pitches in cochise, another 1500 on lemmon.

And tons of unclimbed rock. Find some.

Maybe DDC (o otros) would let some routes get some more bolts if it is good and too dangerous. But it is up to the FA.

Ps. The runout to the first bolt on endgame is irresponsible.

Matt (lazy and weak, not fat nor old)
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Eric Engberg wrote:Ken Nichols thinks he is improving things too with his antics. Exactly the same mentality - "I know what's best for all" and "I'll fix up what has been done wrong by others".
Now to say Ken has communication issues would be a grand understatement. That said, he's never been into "improving things", only preserving them.

Eric Engberg wrote:Just create your own new climbs - what's done is done. If you don't want to do something the way it was done - don't. But don't alter it into something more your liking.
Exactly. Don't retrobolt existing routes. It's a dick thing to do and begs chopping. It's not rocket science.

Eric Engberg wrote:Create your own new route. You might get satisfaction if 1000x as many do your new dumbed down route then do the old test piece. It might be worth noting that 1 ascent of the old test piece will be 1000x more memorable, satisfying and worthy of respect then any send of your new sanitized test piece. I think even members of the instant gratification set have some climbs that are more memorable then others - typically ones that had a some of everything - difficulty, scariness, etc. May your development should be more on a personal level so you can add some of those to your memory bank as opposed to more send-em and forget-em overbolted creations.
No argument there. Particularly the "send-em and forget-em" - boring by definition and I'd personally give up climbing at the the sheer mindlessness of it all if that's all there was to climb.

Sir chuffs alot wrote:The arrogance of lazy fat and weak old men is truly evident on this thread, as is the fact that the future of climbing is held hostage by the bravado of the past. I have never see tough guys cry so much because they have to share, boo hoo you big babies, that's life.
We have no problem "sharing"; we have a problem seeing our routes paved over by riskless pussies. An atheist myself, but maybe there's something to it all:

Ridiculous Old Book wrote:Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Greg Maschi · · Phoenix ,Az · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

I always thought I was a wimp , but am now startin to feel otherwise, always felt like I could relax when I got to runouts at Cochise as the climbing seemed to ease up considerably , Endgame to the 1 st bolt pitch 1 and the runout on pitch 2 seemed trivial, guaranteed I am no hardman.Cannon slab on the other hand terrified me.

Greg Maschi · · Phoenix ,Az · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

Sir Chuffs, if you pull down on 5.13 a measly 5.11 runout should pose no problem for you, maybe your vag is rotten?

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

cuffs.... wow you sure have it backwards.... what exactly is the harm in placing a clean piece of pro on a sport climb???? Nothing gets changed.

On the other hand, if you place a bolt where their wasn't one, the whole deal is changed.

I find your logic flawed.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
Post a Reply to "cochise development"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.