Using Screamers

rocknice2 wrote:I would say if you're not deploying it all the way to the second to last tack then in all likelihood you didn't need it.

And I would say you not really understanding their application to marginal pro or how they're actually working in that context. They were definitely needed and worked exactly as we expected in that application which was allowing time for a circular nest of very small wires to equalize to the center and do it gradually which is why we heavily pre-sliced the screamers.

Bryan Hall wrote: the human body just breaks at 2700 pounds of impact force.

Oh man, we could write a book on that subject. I'll just leave it at this—it's infinitely more complicated than that. Also, the energy absorbers used in rope access work and via ferrata are much longer and have higher activation forces, so they absorb substantially more energy than a standard climbing screamer.

Wally wrote:A lot of anti screamer love here. I was taught to put screamers on old pitons (while free climbing), short ice screws, suspect pieces (whether free rock climbing, aid climbing, or ice climbing). I have seen the argument pro screamer versus anti screamer. Most of us probably do not have the expertise to opine one way or the other. RMS - my thought is you just purchased some screamers. If you place a RP, a tiny nut or cam, or come across and old fixed pin, putting a screamer on it is likely a good decision. It may make a difference, it may not. The vast majority of the time you will never know as the piece won't get tested. Go for it - use those screamers! I do and many of my partners do. Climb Ohn. Wally

SOLID.

Wally wrote:A lot of anti screamer love here. I was taught to put screamers on old pitons (while free climbing), short ice screws, suspect pieces (whether free rock climbing, aid climbing, or ice climbing). I have seen the argument pro screamer versus anti screamer. Most of us probably do not have the expertise to opine one way or the other. RMS - my thought is you just purchased some screamers. If you place a RP, a tiny nut or cam, or come across and old fixed pin, putting a screamer on it is likely a good decision. It may make a difference, it may not. The vast majority of the time you will never know as the piece won't get tested. Go for it - use those screamers! I do and many of my partners do. Climb Ohn. Wally

As with the last poster, I agree with this sentiment. You never know which piece you placed will keep you off the deck.

I'll say one more time that neither testing nor physics considerations hold out much hope of screamers doing anything except possibly for quite short falls. They change the already complicated dynamics of a system with a belayer in it and in some trials have had a slight adverse effect.

The folks who are saying, "I don't understand how they work and I don't know if they work but what the hell, they can't hurt" have a point, perhaps screamers are harmless most of the time and do a little good some of the time. But I want to emphasize again that there is a serious danger involved, which is the very real potential for the blunting of judgement.

A questionable piece with a screamer on it is very nearly or exactly as questionable as it was without the screamer. The real question is whether the leader has altered his or her judgement about proceeding in a realistic way.

Ritualistic decoration of questionable pro with screamers seems to me like a prescription for getting into trouble you might not have accepted without the screamer anesthetic. If you understand the piece might blow and what the consequences of that will be and are prepared to carry on regardless, then and only then does the "it can't hurt" argument actually make sense.

Heres an interesting thought

We have various drop test that show a dynamic cord or a purcell is just as effective if not more so than a screamer at reducing the forces of falls off the anchors ... Ill post up the references when im back home from the crag next week

In fact kong and other companies make friction based screamer plates that you can reuse over and over again

Perhaps home made friction style screamers or knotted dynamic rope might be just or more "effective"?

This calls for drop tests

;)

Screamers are in no way a "WTF, it can't hurt" device and these points of rgold's can't be emphasized enough:

a.) There is a serious danger involved, which is the very real potential for the blunting of judgement.

b.) A questionable piece with a screamer on it is very nearly or exactly as questionable as it was without the screamer. The real question is whether the leader has altered his or her judgement about proceeding in a realistic way.

c.) Ritualistic decoration of questionable pro with screamers seems to me like a prescription for getting into trouble

What rgold and Healyje said.
How stitched screamers work is extremely complicated and simply saying the ripping force is 2kN is rubbish, apply the force at a different speed and you get completely different values which is why the only realistic tests that have been done have shown the imapact force increases with longer falls. The friction systems worked better but it´s still really marginal and the actual benefits are negligable in a normal rope system.
As the two wise older guys above have pointed out there is a difference between phsycological protection and kidding yourself that adding something makes it good pro.
I´ve never seen a trad climber use a screamer in 45 years of climbing.