Mountain Project Logo

Kiwi coil question

Original Post
climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

Do most people use the kiwi coil when crossing glacier or simul climbing to reduce the rope length between you and your partner? Also do both partners take in equal amounts of rope on their shoulders evenly or just one climber? Thx

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
climber57 wrote:Do most people use the kiwi coil when crossing glacier or simul climbing to reduce the rope length between you and your partner? Also do both partners take in equal amounts of rope on their shoulders evenly or just one climber? Thx
Yes and yes. This is the method I have used when climbing with 2 people, especially if we might be switching between simul and belayed climbing.
Kevin Zagorda · · Glen Haven, Co · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 600

Especially if you intend to use a drop loop for crevasse rescue. Each climber needs to have enough rope coiled to execute a rescue.

Brendan Magee · · Parker, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0
csproul wrote: Yes and yes. This is the method I have used when climbing with 2 people, especially if we might be switching between simul and belayed climbing.
^^^ +1

Also, make sure you tie it off good so you don't have a bunch of loose coils to deal with.
Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130

To add on to what was stated above; tie off the coils. This is imperative. If you don't and your partner falls into a crevasse or down a steep slope, you will be strangled. Tying off the coils is essentially your "hard point."

climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

Can you explain tieing off your coils? thanks

Brendan Magee · · Parker, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0

Here's a link for the book Glacier Travel and Crevasse Rescue by Andrew Selters. Not sure if it will work though but I just googled it.

books.google.com/books?id=L…

You don't just wrap the coils around your neck/shoulder and under the other arm. If your partner was to fall, it would just pull those coils tight around your neck because they are not tied off.

Tying off secures the coils and creates a new master/hard point. If your partner was to fall, it would pull on this master/hard point instead of trying to pull through all the coils around your neck. It allows you to escape a self arrest situation (once an anchor is built) and then you have all the extra rope (coils) for a rescue.

I strongly suggest seeking out proper instruction first.

climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

sweet thanks for that link and the info guys. As for professional instruction goes, I dont want to pay for it. Sounds dumb I know but Id rather start with small objectives and get experience first. Also beforehand I plan on practicing crevasse rescue (scenario stylz) and read up as much as I can. That and common sense I think Ill be good.

Brendan Magee · · Parker, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0

I actually have an extra copy of the book if you want it. I'll donate it if you want to pay shipping or local pickup in Denver area.

A good way to practice crevasse rescue is if you have a small crag where you can secure a top rope. One person is lowered on a secure line, the other person up top is then able to practice setting up pulley systems. I've also done this by myself on flat ground just using sandbags as the person who fell in.

Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130
climber57 wrote:Can you explain tieing off your coils? thanks
No, because that would fall under professional instruction. Also, this information can be obtained by reading books and articles that come from a professional source. But, if you're at a loss after reading said articles, consider hiring a professional.
climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

So whats the reason for the books then if I can't just use them, practice whats in them, untill I'm then proficient enough to start slowly into mountaineering?

Jeremy B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
climber57 wrote:So whats the reason for the books then if I can't just use them, practice whats in them, untill I'm then proficient enough to start slowly into mountaineering?
Do read the books and practice. While a guide is unlikely to teach you much that's not in the books, most people tend to miss details when they read. Some of those details can be important, so having a second pair of eyes evaluating your technique becomes useful. In any case, whether you end up hiring a guide or finding someone experienced to go with, you'll find much value in already having a solid handle on the basics.

Keep in mind an author may describe a particular technique in an unclear manner or have something in mind that's different from what they put down on paper. Alternatively, you might be visualizing something different from what was written. This is a weakness of books, but having a few different ones on the same topic can help with this.

Finally, learn from the mistakes of others. Reading accident reports and forums can give you an idea of common ways things go wrong as well as the some of the less-obvious ways things can fail. This type of practical information may not be covered as well in the basic books on technique.
climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

Good points. I would agree that this is ideal to start this way. Its just that Im scrapping pennies to live out of a van and climb an expensive guide is a tough investment. But maybe the best option for my climbing partner and I is to find someone experienced to go with first. Although I have experience ice climbing this may be the right move...

Chuck Parks · · Atlanta, GA · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 2,190

To assist in your visualizing: Tying off Kiwi coils on the YouTubes...

youtube.com/watch?v=UmBafmA…

DannyUncanny · · Vancouver · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 100
Chuck Parks wrote:To assist in your visualizing: Tying off Kiwi coils on the YouTubes... youtube.com/watch?v=UmBafmA…
If you try this technique, make sure to keep your coils loose, otherwise in the event that you belay or weight the rope, the knot will cinch down and pull your belay loop and coils together forcing you to be in a miserable hunched over position for the next hour. Or tie off with something like a bowline that doesn't cinch tight.
David Baddeley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 30
Kiwi coil tie off

I originally learnt to tie off the coils much as described in the video, with the main difference being that the end of the bight was clipped with a locker to the belay loop. Its important to note that this configuration raises the point of attachment, with the coils acting as an improvised chest harness. This is good for stopping you from inverting in the crevasse, but not so good if you are the one trying to hold the fall (the high point of attachment will tend to pull you over so you fall on your face). You also can't remove the coils until you've transferred the weight of the fallen climber to an anchor via a prussick. These days most people seem to prefer tying the coils off and then separately attaching the live rope to your harness loop with an alipne butterfly and a locker. This gives you a low point of attachment, and let's you get the coils off before you've fully escaped the system so you can use then to help build the anchor.
jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230
climber57 wrote:Its just that Im scrapping pennies to live out of a van and climb an expensive guide is a tough investment. But maybe the best option for my climbing partner and I is to find someone experienced to go with first.
The financial and psychological cost of hospital bills and funerals are much more expensive than a guide. I'm biased but the speed and quality of your learning is way faster with a guide than with a book. The real thing is always different than the practice session. You don't want to find out you misunderstood something while your partner is bleeding in a hole. Learning a multitude of techniques and the nuances that go with them will not only increase your safety but also your confidence to try objectives at the edge of your abilities. Experience is a loaded word. Experience with the wrong person or doing it wrong just reinforces useless or dangerous techniques. I get the desire to strike out and go for it but it's not like working on your car,consequences are high. Picking up an odd job for a couple weeks is a small price compared to the alternative. If you consider it like getting a shiny piece of gear (that never wears out) it is easier to accept.
Avalon'cha · · your girlfriend's bedroom · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 35
jmeizis wrote: If you consider it like getting a shiny piece of gear (that never wears out) it is easier to accept.
Information, the shiny piece of gear that never wears out. I LOVE IT
climber57 Jones · · Saint John, NB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 60

OK. I am comfortable with the climbing aspect, Its just the glacier travel that im worried about. Would you say the vast majority of people hire a guide before stepping foot on a glacier? Where do you draw the line of difficult vs. easy (safer) glacier travels which doesnt or does require you to be educated by a guide?

Avalon'cha · · your girlfriend's bedroom · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 35
climber57 wrote:OK. I am comfortable with the climbing aspect, Its just the glacier travel that im worried about. Would you say the vast majority of people hire a guide before stepping foot on a glacier? Where do you draw the line of difficult vs. easy (safer) glacier travels which doesnt or does require you to be educated by a guide?
If you're going the self education route, then YOU CHOOSE were to draw the line, based on current, solid abilities & sphere of acceptable risk. Then add a good margin of safety by taking a few steps back from said line. And know when...........

.............YER' GONNA DIE!
Brendan Magee · · Parker, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0

I'm from Colorado and we don't really have glaciers here besides some really small permanent snowfields that might be called glaciers on a map. The first time I did Rainier, I hired a guide service and took a crevasse rescue class because the style of climbing is far different from Colorado climbing. Take the class, the guide service, the books, and practicing repeatedly I feel fine on glaciers. The next step for me is bigger expedition style peaks like in Alaska in which I'll probably seek out additional instruction.

I understand you want to save money where you can, but consider it an investment in your climbing. Don't expect to self teach yourself everything about climbing. A knowledgeable and experienced partner can be beneficial, but if it was me, I'd be extremely hesitate taking a new person on glaciated terrain.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Mountaineering
Post a Reply to "Kiwi coil question"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.