cochise development

Jeremy Aslaksen wrote:Mutual respect for pussies? Hmmm...don't think so.

karl kvashay wrote: It's a poor assumption to say bold routes were established for one's "ego" or to compensate for "some insecurity". How do you know? However, I think you bring up some good points. It seems like the Stronghold has an interesting situation where this "old-timer" established the lion's share of routes out there in a style that makes them inaccessible to the new breed of climber. It seems reasonable for the original developer to release his creative license to a percentage of his climbs IF a new generation of climbers wants some safe routes out there. Also, hopefully these new routers are doing some research before bolting over an existing route. Does it "seem reasonable"? There's a lot of grey area here, communication and mutual respect might clear it up. Unfortunately, if y'all are dealing with "roll with it or get run over" and "If you're not bold enough" mentalities, I foresee little mutual respect happening. Good luck down there.

This is about the smartest thing ive seen posted on this forum.

Bottom line:
There is a lotta stone on this planet, enough that there is no reason to go retro'ing established bold routes so your crew can spray about their sick FA's. Living in Tucson you have a lifetimes worth of safe granite sport climbs on Mt. Lemon. You participate in a sport where the community has deemed (for the most part) that classic routes of bold style are to be left until the first ascentionist agrees to some pro being added. Please respect these ethics.

I love that this is even a topic or even thought of "this being the smartest thing said" mentality. So I think your sport routes are lame and I can lead them with 1/3 of the bolts so I should chop them? New generation of climber?! WTF is that?! We all started somewhere, hell I grew up minutes from literally a thousand sport routes, but I wanted something more. I wanted to move across rock in not only a safe manner, but with minimal pause when it got scary. I dove into this learning how to keep a cool head while runnout, how to DOWNCLIMB and workout the moves. To this day I find myself down climbing routes just to remember how to. I am not an old timer, at present I am the ripe age of 34. I learned to climb reading books about the old days and how to respect ones first ascent. You can go to almost any wall in Cochise and find a place to bolt a new route. Why dumb others work to your level because you are the "new generation" of climber? Suck it up buttercup you are not the most important thing in the world and your climbing sucks in comparison to the ones who put that route up. Be proud of that. Be proud in the fact you have the ability to move into that arena and a chance to walk with the giants. Be in awe of the ones who came before you, and strive everyday to one day be able I do that route you wanted to do instead of turning that life changing experience into another dumb sport climb that fades into memory like the 1000's before that. Strive for better, youre life will be richer I promise.
Kurt Burt

CJC wrote: Looking past your condescending assumptions about climbing pioneers, what do you propose Tim? Honestly interested in hearing your thoughts.

Honestly, I don't care that much. I climbed at cochise once and probably will a few more times in my life. Plenty of routes there to keep me busy for a few trips. I'm not a local, so I really don't think my opinion should matter. I do like to stir up self righteous fundamentalist climbers, and certain crags have a lot of them.

Maybe I could come out and join the crew for a week or two soon Jack?

Only pussies use kernmantle ropes! Show respect to the FA!

If I were a real Internet Hardman, I'd go out and solo a bunch of new 5.7-5.10 routes, and put one bolt in the middle of each. That would keep the newbies and weaklings at bay.

karl kvashay wrote:It seems like the Stronghold has an interesting situation where this "old-timer" established the lion's share of routes out there in a style that makes them inaccessible to the new breed of climber. It seems reasonable for the original developer to release his creative license to a percentage of his climbs IF a new generation of climbers wants some safe routes out there.

Karl,

I have climbed a number of routes put up by DDC in the Stronghold. Often they follow obvious weaknesses in the rock and can be protected by gear. The idea that every route he has put up is runout is simply not true.

Moreover, there are already hundreds of heavily-bolted routes in the Stronghold that people can choose to climb.

Finally, there is still plenty of undeveloped rock in the Stronghold on which climbers can establish new routes.

Finally, a guy that understands my place in the climbing pantheon. Thanks Tim!!

I don't actually believe cochise has any "death routes" or R rated routes. It's a myth the locals circulate to keep people away. I've only climbed one route at Cochise. It was "unknown right of stampede." Knowing the reputation of Cochise, I was scared before we started. The route was fun, but about as heady as picking flowers. Bolts every four feet. What people in S AZ call "R rated" most folks call sport climbing.*

*Saturday and 36 degrees where I live. If I can't climb, I will fan the flames.

Headed down this week, excited to see these "rad" new routes care to divulge any info on their locations?

Greg Maschi wrote:Headed down this week, excited to see these "rad" new routes care to divulge any info on their locations?

take a crowbar.

Dave's not here, man.

Geir wrote: Karl, I have climbed a number of routes put up by DDC in the Stronghold. Often they follow obvious weaknesses in the rock and can be protected by gear. The idea that every route he has put up is runout is simply not true. Moreover, there are already hundreds of heavily-bolted routes in the Stronghold that people can choose to climb. Finally, there is still plenty of undeveloped rock in the Stronghold on which climbers can establish new routes.

Thanks for the perspective. So, hopefully the new development thats going on doesn't blemish these well-established lines.

karl kvashay wrote: Thanks for the perspective. So, hopefully the new development thats going on doesn't blemish these well-established lines.

I hope so too Karl. Thanks.

Perhaps these established minimalist routes should be publicly documented? Photos, stories, and descriptions would not only deter folks from accidentally or intentionally altering them, but also serve as inspiration and precedent for new climbers. This proactive method seems advantageous over the current retroactive chopping and public shaming. You can't blame folks for their actions if you haven't taught them otherwise.

Hendrixson wrote:Perhaps these established minimalist routes should be publicly documented? Photos, stories, and descriptions would not only deter folks from accidentally or intentionally altering them, but also serve as inspiration and precedent for new climbers. This proactive method seems advantageous over the current retroactive chopping and public shaming. You can't blame folks for their actions if you haven't taught them otherwise.

If people ever climbed them they would be documented, I'm sure of it.

Hendrixson wrote:Perhaps these established minimalist routes should be publicly documented? Photos, stories, and descriptions would not only deter folks from accidentally or intentionally altering them, but also serve as inspiration and precedent for new climbers. This proactive method seems advantageous over the current retroactive chopping and public shaming. You can't blame folks for their actions if you haven't taught them otherwise.

Good thoughts John.

If I understand correctly, part of DDC's intent behind using as much clean protection as possible and discouraging distribution of his beta is to limit climber impact in the Stronghold. It's understandable that a person who leaves virtually no trace of his passage is hesitant to see the Stronghold get torn up.

However, when I have contacted him to ask about a route I have repeated, he has been forthcoming with information about it. DDC has been meticulous in documenting the routes he has done. My suggestion for anyone putting up new routes in the Stronghold is to contact him if they come across a route that might have already been established. It's not convenient like MP is, but at least there is some way to get the information.

John and Geir,

I just stumbled on this thread and read through it thinking people were missing the point. Your posts seemed spot on.

If someone puts up a route and leaves little or no trace and keeps it to himself, that's really cool. But then someone comes along and thinks it's virgin rock or an abandoned route and starts doing his thing. Should the original ascentionist be surprised ? If he wants his routes to stay as they were, he probably better publicize them. It's a painful thought perhaps, but maybe the alternative is more painful. How can we hammer young kids for destroying old, bold routes if they don't know where they are ? My basic feeling is that documentation subtracts adventure from adventure climbing, but it is probably a necessary evil these days.