BD 3.5 Equivalent?

So I was climbing a hands-to-fist splitter in the creek last week and almost 'fixed' the first cam in my life when I shoved a new #4 c4 on lead into a steep, rattly cupped-hands crack. It's high time I get some 3.5s. It looks like the WC Helium #4 might be the piece in this size? Does anybody use it? I have an old number 9 Metolius that is definitely in the range, but I don't dig that piece so much.

What are folks using in that shaky size between big/cupped hands and fists? Thanks!

Oh, anybody climbed Mondo on Broken Tooth? I took a look at it and was both terrified and inspired. 3.5s for some good chunk of it?

The old 3.5 is just a touch smaller than the new #4, but for almost all intents and purposes, they're basically the same size. If you want something truly in the middle of that range, you'll probably have to switch brands, as you noted.

DMM Demon 3.5.

shoo wrote:The old 3.5 is just a touch smaller than the new #4, but for almost all intents and purposes, they're basically the same size. If you want something truly in the middle of that range, you'll probably have to switch brands, as you noted.

Hey shoo, you nailed it. In most anyplace I could/would slot the 4 where a 3.5 might have been. The creek is tricky though, for sure, in that I would have had super tipped-out 3s for quite awhile before having a chance for gear when only working with the new 4s.

Eric LaRoche wrote:DMM Demon 3.5.

Right on! That was the other piece I was wondering about. Thank you. Did DMM pick up the WC Tech Friend sizing after WC was bought out? Is the 3.5 Demon bigger than the old WC 3.5 Friend? Or about the same?

The Demon 3.5 is the same as WC's current 3.5, that's about all i know.

Are you sure it's the BD #4 that you're trying to fill a gap for? The usual gap is considered between #2 and #3 (DMM Dragon #4 and #5) which the fill is the Demon/WC 3 (purple). Since single axle 3.5 is completely in within double axle #3's range.

Eric LaRoche wrote:The Demon 3.5 is the same as WC's current 3.5, that's about all i know. Are you sure it's the BD #4 that you're trying to fill a gap for? The usual gap is considered between #2 and #3 (DMM Dragon #4 and #5) which the fill is the Demon/WC 3 (purple). Since single axle 3.5 is completely in within double axle #3's range.

Hey, cool. Yes, I'm trying to fill the gap between a tipped-out BD #3 and BD#4. As it were I have two of the old rigid-stem Friends in the #3 (purple) size that fit great for when the gold c4 is getting baggy. I don't have any of the 3.5 or 4 friends though, so I'm not too keen on their sizing. I'm looking for the piece that fits when the BD 3 is getting baggy and the 4 is yet too big.

Thanks again.

I've owned the 3.5 Camalot, the Wild Country Helium #4, and a DMM u-stem #4. They're all roughly the same size... a little smaller than the C4 #4. Their range is a little less and they're not as smooth as the BD, but are considerably lighter in weight. I don't know about the sizing of the DMM Dragon and Demon cams though.

caughtinside wrote:the BD 3.5 is a #4 friend.

Thank you.

DMM Dragons have the same exact range as the C4s. Same color same physical size. The number size is two up from C4s. So C4s #2 is Dragon #4 though they're both the same color and same range size. C4s .3 and .4 are 00 and 0 respectively.

Likeasummerthursday wrote:What are folks using in that shaky size between big/cupped hands and fists?

For that, I use a #2.

But for cracks larger than fists, there are times when it seems only a 3.5 will do - it's worth picking one up used if you get the chance.

Likeasummerthursday wrote: Hey, cool. Yes, I'm trying to fill the gap between a tipped-out BD #3 and BD#4.

Aren't the previous generation (no thumb loop) #3 Camalots a touch bigger than the C4? That could narrow the gap a little bit if all your 3s are the new style.

Eric LaRoche wrote:DMM Dragons have the same exact range as the C4s. Same color same physical size. The number size is two up from C4s. So C4s #2 is Dragon #4 though they're both the same color and same range size. C4s .3 and .4 are 00 and 0 respectively.

While this is generally accurate, the c4 and Dragon sizing is slightly different. Hold a .3 c4 up next to a 0 Dragon. You should be able to see a distinct size difference.

Gunkiemike wrote: Aren't the previous generation (no thumb loop) #3 Camalots a touch bigger than the C4? That could narrow the gap a little bit if all your 3s are the new style.

They definitely are larger, and I have a collection of them, but the difference is seriously slight.

Em Cos wrote: For that, I use a #2. But for cracks larger than fists, there are times when it seems only a 3.5 will do - it's worth picking one up used if you get the chance.

Dang Em, you must have small hands! Or mine are big... Your #2 is my #3.5+...

Thank you all for your feedback and ideas. I just ordered two cams that fit the 3.5 bill as best I can tell---> 1) Wild Country Helium #4 in Silver
2) DMM Demon #4 in Silver

As far as I can tell these are actually identical in size (to each other) to within 2mm, have the same camming angle and are both single stem. The Helium has the thumb loop, the Demon does not. I've used the Dragons but never the Demons. They look like near-copies of the WC Tech Friends.

When I have a chance to use them I will post up some thoughts and maybe some pics if I can get them of the sizing.

Thanks again. Super helpful.

Yeah the demons are the same setup as the dragons except they're single axle. Same lobes from their 4CUs. They also colored the inside lobes vs the outside lobes of the dragons so you can quickly tell them apart.

If need extras in that size you can typically find good deals on the #4 wild country forged friend, plus they are light for their size.

This discussion comes up often enough that I wonder what Black Diamond has to say about it? Usually I'm looking for something between a 2 and 3 for handcracks, rather than the 3-4, but it's the same issue. If you aren't really supposed to use the first (widest) third of the range or the last little bit, it leaves precious little overlap. The cracks around here tend to have enough variation that you can usually find a good fit, but in other places like the Creek it seems like a problem. Any thoughts from BD?

Though with a larger the cam the closer to open you should be able go since the expansion left at 1/4 of a #4 is going to be more than the entire range of a smaller cam. A #4 has a total range of 48mm where a .5 is only 13. A quarter of a #4 has almost as much range as all of a .5. Obviously this would just apply to holding but may not help stability from walking or falling out.

David Houston wrote:This discussion comes up often enough that I wonder what Black Diamond has to say about it? Usually I'm looking for something between a 2 and 3 for handcracks, rather than the 3-4, but it's the same issue. If you aren't really supposed to use the first (widest) third of the range or the last little bit, it leaves precious little overlap. The cracks around here tend to have enough variation that you can usually find a good fit, but in other places like the Creek it seems like a problem. Any thoughts from BD?

Hey David, as it were I called Black Diamond yesterday afternoon to ask them about this. I asked the woman who picked up a few questions. Namely, I suggested that it is a "real thing" that BD doesn't seem to make a piece anymore that fits. I asked her if this was actually case. In short, she said it is the case indeed, and that she actually uses the old 3.5. I asked her if any other companies filled this gap. She said she didn't know, it sounded like she indeed didn't actually know. I asked her what I best do. While not entirely clear, I gathered generally that I ought get some old 3.5s or do the obvious: place a tipped-out 3 or do what I did with the 4----> wait for it or force it where it doesn't fit.

Anyway, that was the call. I was gonna call DMM and WC, but they have no US number and the hour was too late in Greenwich.