The Subway - Zion National Park, Need some advice
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How's it going everyone. |
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Ask this question at bogley.com and canyoncollective.com. You'll get better responses. |
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Austin Baird wrote:Ask this question at bogley.com and canyoncollective.com. You'll get better responses.+1 I think you will want wetsuits, maybe even dry suits, assuming this is a good idea at all. |
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If you have a group of new canyoneers, start early, it will take a full day if you want to enjoy it |
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I posted this earlier today in the "First time in Zion" thread: |
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Jeff T wrote: Any help would be appreciated (bolted raps? hard to find the trail? etc.)! CheersI did the subway in low flow and it was really easy. However, I have heard it can be challenging in higher flow. The trail is pretty straight forward, just follow the cairns and get a good beta pictures. All of the rappels are bolted and they are very short. Jeff T wrote: Is there any advice that I should know before I plan out the trip? I have never been canyoneering nor has anyone in my group.You might just want to do a canyon beforehand. If you are still in SD there are a bunch in your area. Check it out: dankat.com/socal/front.htm |
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matt c. wrote: I did the subway in low flow and it was really easy. However, I have heard it can be challenging in higher flow."It's easy at x flow" is how people die in sandstone canyons, or even worse, require others to come get them. Unlike limestone, sandstone slot canyons change drastically at pathetically small differences in water flow. Imlay is a breeze at certain water levels (Heaps is always a bit stiff). My 2 cents - get some experience on easier canyons. Head over to Escalante and you can get a bunch of pothole escape technique dialed in Neon Canyon, bridging/stemming/human anchor in Ringtail. As Austin said, head over to canyoneering-specific sites for better beta. Also, "I have experience in trad and sport climbing and have experience in rappels as well" Que es? I had experience in rappels after my first time. Tommy Caldwell has experience in trad and sport climbing. I'm not saying you don't have the technique necessary, but I'm not saying you do. If you can't confidently rig anchors, deal with stuck ropes on rappel, and other very basic techniques, you really don't belong leading a group through a canyon. It's fine if you get yourself hypothermic/hurt/killed, it's when you lead trusting others that really bad juju occurs. I'm not trying to piss on your parade, but my experiences in SAR & now the hospital have caused me to wish many times that someone said "What the hell are you thinking? Get some technique first". |
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We?? So how many are in your group? You say none have done any canyoneering but have they done any rappelling, hours of scrambling around? Often larger groups are more of hazard than a smaller. |
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I agree with many of the points on here. Bring a wetsuit. I did it last april and was very happy i brought it. Start early, its a long day. Especially cause sometime t-storms develop in the afternoon further north. There are a lot of cairns but they can be easy to miss. I do not recommend bottom up, i think you miss so much of the beauty and fun of this canyon. |
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pkeds wrote:I do not recommend bottom up, i think you miss so much of the beauty and fun of this canyon.Yes, but you also miss the mandatory swims in frigid water and the wet rappels! |
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Brassmonkey wrote:I did the subway hike a couple of summers ago as my (gasp) first canyon. I was in the park by myself and was unable to find a climbing partner, so on a whim I asked the rangers if there were any permits available that day and there was one permit. I drove up, parked at the end, hitch-hiked to the start and did the hike by myself. I did encounter some groups but the routefinding was straightforward and the rappels were bolted and extremely simple (and short). 2 of them I simply lowered myself hand over hand down the rope. I'm not saying its a joke but I found it to be very low key. I'm sure in heavy cold water that it is and can be very different. I would get a wet suit for April, but if the rangers say you are good to go that day flow wise, go for it.April is very different than summer. Routefinding is straightforward - assuming you stay on the route and not like the woman who missed the hard right turn to the 4th class downclimb and slipped off a 100' cliff. The rangers will not necessarily know the flow since there is no flow gauge - you have to assess it on-site. Newbies have done it as their first canyon with no problems. Experienced people have died there. Generally, the recommendation is to do an easier technical canyon first. |
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Austin Baird wrote:Ask this question at bogley.com and canyoncollective.com. You'll get better responses.+2 A cautionary tale from April 2011, with high flow. climb-utah.com/Zion/subway2… Maybe not a concern this year, as I *hear* the snowpack is low (good to verify that, along with water flow and weather conditions at trip time). Not a good idea to go at high flow with no canyoneering experience. Best available subway beta: canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zi… |
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hank moon wrote:Best available subway beta: canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zi…That blue whales bigger brother: bluugnome.com/cyn_route/zio… |
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Thanks for all the responses, you guys have been a big help! I will definitely be seeking further instruction on basic canyoneering and will assess my groups skill level and see what they're comfortable with. The last thing I want is to put them in danger by blindly going into this canyon. |
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Hard to imagine an easier "technical" canyon than the top down subway. Go for it. Plenty of people do that as their first canyon. Well below normal snowpack will in all likelyhood mean you don't need to worry about an abnormally high flow experience. |
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Darin Berdinka wrote:Hard to imagine an easier "technical" canyon than the top down subway. Go for it. Plenty of people do that as their first canyon. Well below normal snowpack will in all likelyhood mean you don't need to worry about an abnormally high flow experience.When the OP, who is the ostensible leader, says "I have never been canyoneering nor has anyone in my group.", it should raise serious caution flags that argue against "Go for it" as a first canyon. People have died in that canyon (see links above) because they didn't know what they were doing. At least in this case the OP has climbing experience that will certainly help and elevates above being totally clueless noobs. Not saying they shouldn't go, but should be aware of what it might entail, especially at the beginning of April. |