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putting noobs on gri gri or atc?

Original Post
M.J. Pulvorizers · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 5

Lately all this articles about gri gri failing popping up. So this makes me think, is it better to put noobs on gri or atc while top rope belaying? I'm talking about a situation with a little or no experience climbers or sketch deal peeps you don't really know. It happens at the gyms or at crags to all of us, all of a sudden you swap ropes and your be layer is kinda new. What are some thoughts?
I'm still thinking gri gri with the right diameter rope is the preferred choice but may be inclined to listen to people's experiences.
Whatever, whatever. If you have ever been to a super micromanagement gym and the staff members (usually are boulderers or never climbed outside) but seem to know everything and anything about how to tie a figure 8 better then you...well, you will get my drift if you have ever been in this situation.
In a nutshell, my question: is slapping gri gri gonna make your be layer complacent or will it be the thing that catches you when his or her hands lose control....or maybe an atc with 2 lockers for better friction and a healthy dose of "you better not let go of that brake hand or even raise it an inch higher than this!" Will work better on a noobie?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

You should hire a guide.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

If its just the two of you, def a grigri... rig a prussik on the other strand when they begin lowering you and then you have a backup as you slide the prussik lower. Might be a PITA but you got a backup. IF there's three, ATC with a firemans belay wld prob be best.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

Simple: Don't have a person you are unfamiliar with or noobs belay unless there is an experienced person backing them up on the brake side and watching what they are doing. I don't let people belay me unless I have been able to observe them in action for a while or at least have somebody I trust vouch for them.

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270

Everything Marc said. Also, I think all people should learn on an ATC before ever touching a Gri-Gri so that they understand the mechanics of belaying and how falls are caught etc. That way, the temptation to take hands off the gri and answer the cell-phone goes down to some extent

M.J. Pulvorizers · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 5
Jon Frisby wrote:Everything Marc said. Also, I think all people should learn on an ATC before ever touching a Gri-Gri so that they understand the mechanics of belaying and how falls are caught etc. That way, the temptation to take hands off the gri and answer the cell-phone goes down to some extent
That makes sense. The problem is I may only climb with the person one time. It's hard to make the determination about the skills and experience by only asking questions. I was looking for a quick fix.
I'm talking about a situation where you swap ropes and somebody may suggest to belay you when your regular partner is climbing with an unfamiliar party at a gym or crag.
climbalready2 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 5
M.J. Pulvorizers wrote: Looki looki and yo all are calling me troll. We are dealing with 6th graders on this site too. As I'm trying to sort through this nonsense. ...
You don't actually expect matururity, civility or intellegent discussion on MP, do you?

Have you been on this site before?
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

I would train them using the ATC's.

A Gri has that extra level of protection over an ATC. I would fear the extra complexity when lowering, a noob might drop or injure their climber.

ATC's are so simple and logical and serve to establish the foundation for being a safe climber. The practices learned here carry over to the proper use of a Gri Gri. Learning the Gri first is a bit like putting the chicken before the egg.

Also, don't believe the hype. Gri is a great belay piece, and injuries are due to mis-application by their users. It is perfectly safe when one has been fully educated and trained, and safety protocol is followed. My 2 cents.

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419

This was fun to watch!
Teaching how to do most any activity starts with a willingness to learn.
Before Jake Jones goes off on me
I have only this to add:

Start up the conversation with a question or two about what the background of the belayer has been.

Have they experienced rope burn from belaying?

Have they used more than one belay device? Do they have a preference, why?

Do they understand and use the same commands that you use? If not get that straightend out .

Do some ground work:

Set up a scenario, where the rope can run to a piece or two in between the two of you on the ground.

Test the belay, before you leave the ground.

5 minutes, If the person is willing to show you what they Know and can handle what you throw at them, both of you will be better off.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Jon Frisby wrote:Everything Marc said. Also, I think all people should learn on an ATC before ever touching a Gri-Gri so that they understand the mechanics of belaying and how falls are caught etc. That way, the temptation to take hands off the gri and answer the cell-phone goes down to some extent
ever notice how Petzl explicitly says one MUST be an expert (or some synonym) at belaying for for using a Grigri? I'm pretty sure there's a reason they say that and i would not consider a newbie to be an expert. but it appears you've already made up your mind and are just looking for some justification. and since this is MP, yer gonna die
Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
eli poss wrote: ever notice how Petzl explicitly says one MUST be an expert (or some synonym) at belaying for for using a Grigri? I'm pretty sure there's a reason they say that and i would not consider a newbie to be an expert. but it appears you've already made up your mind and are just looking for some justification. and since this is MP, yer gonna die
I mean that's just for insurance but I totally agree with you
Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

When in doubt, use your Silent Parter.

M.J. Pulvorizers · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 5

I've trolled this site for 4 years so I know the games.
Back on subject though, I threw a shaky noob once to belay me on trad lead on gri gri at Castle Rock park. He was an educated mechanically inclined dude and it was a very familiar route to me so the chance was taken. He seemed to have done ok. I witnessed a beginner getting pulled in and almost dropping the leader because the be layer stood too far and was too light nothing wrong with her technique but who knows if she had an atc if the sudden pull would make her let go and drop the climber. My feelings about this whole subject are kind of mixed still. I agree that the person should be familiar with the device. The topic is still arguable in my opinion. If given a choice between gri and atc and a belayer I would ask them their preferred method , if they leave it up to me I would throw in grigri.

I used to only belay on atc on lead and was weirded out when somebody would ask me to use a gri gri (and that happened more than a few times). In aide or big wall you can't just rely on atc, you have to be doing all those other things while belaying or else precious time is lost. After I became comfortable with gri gri lead belay because I simply had to, it's my preferred method on trad lead belay. Sport lead belaying I still prefer atc because of the quickness of feed when belaying with atc.

M.J. Pulvorizers · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 5
Tim Lutz wrote:Why were my posts pulled?
Admins....somebody probably got offended :/

Hurry up and post before they close this thread or delete me!!!!
Migra! Migra!
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

As with all such atc vs. gri-gri discussions, what really matters is the belayer, not the device.

If they are a competent, trusted belayer they can use whatever device they are most comfortable using. If I had a reason not to trust someone to the point where I was wondering if a change of device might mitigate risk, then that's probably someone I'm not going to rope up with.

I'm not sure I'm comprehending this scenario you mention - you "swap ropes and whoa, there's a new belayer you don't know!" I mean, presumably you know who's belaying you before you leave the ground. If you're not happy with that belayer, don't leave the ground.

I've been in mixed groups before - where I know some partners and don't know others - and had strangers or newbs or both offer me a belay, and I have said "thank you but I'd be more comfortable if ------- belayed me." Almost universally climbers understand completely and no drama results. It is after all your life on the line. If someone throws a fit because you don't trust them to belay you, that's probably just a good sign you made the right decision. Your life can change or end in an instant while climbing and your belayer (and you!!) should appreciate the gravity of that.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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