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only assisted braking devices allowed in gyms?

ZANE · · Cleveland, OH · Joined May 2011 · Points: 20

My gym does not allow the use of a grigri. I own a gri gri, but almost never use it. I prefer ATC for everything (sport, trad, multipitch) and am only keeping it in case i aid at some point.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
ZANE wrote:My gym does not allow the use of a grigri. I own a gri gri, but almost never use it. I prefer ATC for everything (sport, trad, multipitch) and am only keeping it in case i aid at some point.
how bout when your belayers head gets crushed in by a falling rock? no big deal?
ZANE · · Cleveland, OH · Joined May 2011 · Points: 20
Miike wrote: how bout when your belayers head gets crushed in by a falling rock? no big deal?
That's what I was worried about on the diamond, and other longer desert routes. But, both my partner and I prefer the ATC. Personal preference I guess. If I get taken out by a rock or my partner, well... hopefully all turns out well. Not a huge concern of mine at the moment. Plus, light is right!
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Tim Lutz wrote:great attitude Zane! Being scared of rock fall is for pussies.
and dead people, change and learning is hard though...
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

At the end of the day, the safest belay device is the device the user is most experienced with and most comfortable with, regardless if that is a GriGri or a figure eight. Forcing someone to use a particular device or banning a device only shows that the management has no understanding of what the real underlying problems are with poor belayers—the belayers themselves. This just further proves that gym staff, on average, are among the most misinformed and improperly trained in the industry. The correct solution is to provide sufficiently rigorous training to climbers who do not know how to use a particular device, ensuring the employees properly police bad belay habits, and ensuring the employees themselves actually know what they are doing.

Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
20 kN wrote:At the end of the day, the safest belay device is the device the user is most experienced with and most comfortable with, regardless if that is a GriGri or a figure eight. Forcing someone to use a particular device or banning a device only shows that the management has no understanding of what the real underlying problems are with poor belayers—the belayers themselves. This just further proves that gym staff, on average, are among the most misinformed and improperly trained in the industry. The correct solution is to provide sufficiently rigorous training to climbers who do not know how to use a particular device, ensuring the employees properly police bad belay habits, and ensuring the employees themselves actually know what they are doing.
For the sake of discussion: considering these two cases, I'd guess #2 would have a lower statistical chance of accident / injury:

1) Inattentive / poor top rope belayer using an ATC.
2) Inattentive / poor top rope belayer using a Gri-Gri.

Gri-Gri's definitely have gotchas, and someone can certainly screw up with a Gri-Gri. But a gym that mandates them would also require belayers to demonstrate proficiency (the well-known "belay test").
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Kent Richards wrote: For the sake of discussion: considering these two cases, I'd guess #2 would have a lower statistical chance of accident / injury: 1) Inattentive / poor top rope belayer using an ATC. 2) Inattentive / poor top rope belayer using a Gri-Gri.
Yes, all things equal the GriGri is safer. However, this is kind of an irrelevant point when considering why a gym creates belaying restrictions in the first place. Those restrictions are not created for expert climbers that are equally competent using all belay devices. The rules are created in an attempt to protect the less competent, and less commonly, for insurance purposes. Same with most other rules.

Most of the rules are not aimed toward those who are competent with any device, they are aimed toward those who are not competent using any device, which is why I am saying the gym is making a mistake. You do not fix incompetency with a device, you fix it with training.

As far as the belay test goes, that doesent mean crap. I have passed lead belay tests in over 25 gyms, and in almost every gym I saw at least one person doing something that he should not have done despite being certified. In at least 2/3rds of the gyms, I would not have climbed with the test administrator on anything more serious than single-pitch sport, which hints to the competency of the guys administering the test.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

"I rehabilitate dogs, I train people." The Dog Whisperer

People think there is something wrong with there dog. When in fact, the human needs training.

In climbing, some think the device is the issue, when in fact, the human needs training.

One of the greater issues at hand, I believe, is that more and more people get their first belay experience belaying a top rope in a gym. There is some much friction in these systems, you hardly need a device. Poor technique is forgiven since it takes so little effort to catch someone in these systems. At the gym the other day, I was lowering my partner with a reverso 2 or 3 or what ever number it is now. I stopped my partner 3 feet above the floor and said "hey, watch this". I let go with both hands. EEEk. I know. My partner ever so slowly oozed to the floor and was set down light as a feather. Stupid amount of friction.

Now, take a new belayer. This is the friction they are dealing with at first. Much forgiveness, easy to get away with poor technique. Take them outside with skinnier, slicker ropes. Much more technique required. Now, lead belay! Even less forgiving.

Its not the device... its the human.

Alan Doak · · boulder, co · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 120

Interesting that this is happening in Germany.

The first time I climbed at a gym in Germany, I asked the guy if I needed to take a belay test. He narrows his eyes and looks at me suspiciously and asks "You know how to climb, don't you?" I said yeah. "Well, go climb!" and shoo's me off.

I've been to a few different German gyms, and none of them required a belay test. One had slab floors with no mats, and another had slab floors with a 5' wide mat along the base of the wall.

After watching a girl drop her partner on a first date, my German buddy turns to me and says "Maybe we should have belay tests..."

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
doak wrote:Interesting that this is happening in Germany. The first time I climbed at a gym in Germany, I asked the guy if I needed to take a belay test. He narrows his eyes and looks at me suspiciously and asks "You know how to climb, don't you?" I said yeah. "Well, go climb!" and shoo's me off. I've been to a few different German gyms, and none of them required a belay test. One had slab floors with no mats, and another had slab floors with a 5' wide mat along the base of the wall. After watching a girl drop her partner on a first date, my German buddy turns to me and says "Maybe we should have belay tests..."
It isn´t happening in Germany, that´s a flight of imagination by someone writing a blog. You are free to use any belay device you like and in 20 years living here I´ve never taken any tests (belay, lead, fall or whatever and never seen a floorwalker or whatever they are called. The beer is better than in American gyms as well, at my nearest wall it´s under $1,50 a 0.5l bottle for a quality Bavarian product.
ZANE · · Cleveland, OH · Joined May 2011 · Points: 20
Tim Lutz wrote:great attitude Zane! Being scared of rock fall is for pussies.
I'm not sure if you couldn't comprehend what I posted, or are just a fan of bubblewrapping the world.

We play the odds in everything. I suggest you quit rockclimbing if you equate accepting a tiny increase in risk to your statement.

Do you wear a helmet every single time you go out? For bouldering? Do you stick clip every route?
Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
20 kN wrote: Yes, all things equal the GriGri is safer. However, this is kind of an irrelevant point when considering why a gym creates belaying restrictions in the first place. Those restrictions are not created for expert climbers that are equally competent using all belay devices. The rules are created in an attempt to protect the less competent, and less commonly, for insurance purposes. Same with most other rules. Most of the rules are not aimed toward those who are competent with any device, they are aimed toward those who are not competent using any device,
If -- when all things are equal a Gri-Gri is safer -- then wouldn't a Gri-Gri be safer when all climbers are equally incompetent, the routes are the same, the ropes are the same?

It's a completely relevant point...

Training will make everyone safer and in ways that a device can't, of course. But, a device that is safer when all things are equal should increase baseline safety even in an absence of training.

20 kN wrote: As far as the belay test goes, that doesent mean crap. I have passed lead belay tests in over 25 gyms, and in almost every gym I saw at least one person doing something that he should not have done despite being certified.
Are you saying that because you witnessed mistakes, a belay test that requires sufficient skills demonstration doesn't increase the odds of people knowing what they're doing? Some failures means no one in the gym has learned better habits as a result of preparing for a demonstration of their skill?

That doesn't follow, in my book. There will always be some failures. The only way to really gauge the effectiveness of a belay test is to measure how many failures it prevented or measure the rate of belay accidents before and after instituting the policy.
ZANE · · Cleveland, OH · Joined May 2011 · Points: 20
Tim Lutz wrote:A strawman says what? Ever been hit by a 20lb rock pulled off by the climber while falling 30'? I have. I kept the brake hand on until exactly when the rock hit my shoulder. Hand went to protect my head, but not a conscious decision. Reflex instinct and stuff. Or maybe Im not as good of a belayer as the amazing ATC hardmen such as yourself. If the Gri hadnt locked, the climber would have decked.
So, rockfall can happen, therefore never use an ATC. It comes down to personal choice. I appreciate that you had an accident and now you're of the opinion that a grigri is mandatory. For many others, it isn't. How many pitches have you climbed without rockfall? I'm assuming a multitude more.

It's similar to saying that you should never climb below seracs because they can fall. You can stay at ouray on toprope.

Again, it's personal preference.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

heres likely one of the reasons for those bavarian beer drinkers fascination with assisted braking devices ...

hrstefan.blogspot.ca/2014/1…

In 2013 German climbing gyms had a total of 1,035,505 visits where of 236 (or 0.02%) led to accidents of varying seriousness. This is equivalent to 0,076 accidents per 1000 hours of climbing. In comparison, professional football has 9.4 accidents per 1000 hours of playing football. It can be concluded that professional football is associated with far more accidents than climbing in a climbing gym. So far so good.

Of the 236 accidents recorded 145 (61%) were accidents related to bouldering and 29 (12%) were related to the belayer, and 35 (15%) were related to the climber. This could lead one to believe that bouldering is more risky than lead climbing, but this would be a misconception. For that we need information on how many of the climbing visits included bouldering.

Of the 29 accidents, which were related to the belayer, 18 accidents (62%) involved a tubular belay device, 2 accidents (7%) involved an auto tube and 5 accidents (17%) involved a semi-automatic belay device while unknown belay devices were used in 2 accidents. Here comes the misconception of KLEVER, as they believe that tubular belay devices are more risky than the other two types of belay device. Again, we need information on how many of the climbing visits, which involved lead climbing, plus we need information on the climbers belay devices. With these data missing, one can not recommend a specific type of brake over another. Not very clever !!


ill post up more later on ... all this intraweb yaking requires that i actually look up and use my google translate fu on those beer stained german documents

;)

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Kent Richards wrote: If -- when all things are equal a Gri-Gri is safer -- then wouldn't a Gri-Gri be safer when all climbers are equally incompetent, the routes are the same, the ropes are the same? It's a completely relevant point... Training will make everyone safer and in ways that a device can't, of course. But, a device that is safer when all things are equal should increase baseline safety even in an absence of training.
The question is, would forcing everyone to switch to a GriGri, despite numerous climbers not being experienced with the device, yield a greater increase in overall safety compared to the decrease in safety experienced by forcing climbers to use an advanced belay device they are not as experienced with?

I dont think anyone can honestly argue that forcing someone to use a belay device they are not experienced with, regardless of the advantages of said action, is truly safer than just allowing that user to use the device he is experienced with. If you roped up with someone you dident know and said "bro, I need you to use the GriGri" and your partner said "Well, I have been using the ATC for years, but I really dont know much about the GriGri", would you still think the GriGri would be the way to go?

The other issue here is when you create blanket rules to try to increase the hypothetical overall safety of the gym, there is no end to that argument. Maybe we ban ropes under 10mm because they are harder to handle. Maybe we also ban thin G-string sport climbing harnesses because they might wear out faster and go unnoticed. Then maybe we say climbers cannot climb more than six routes per day to reduce the chance of a fatigue-induced mistake.

As far as the belay test goes, they need to continue with it. But the many of the tests are poorly written and even more poorly enforced. Test takers illustrate good technique during the test, then revert to poorer technique in the field without being corrected by the staff. The main priority should be enforcement of proper technique, since the belay test is just a single test that only matters at the time it's administered.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
bearbreeder wrote:Of the 29 accidents, which were related to the belayer, 18 accidents (62%) involved a tubular belay device, 2 accidents (7%) involved an auto tube and 5 accidents (17%) involved a semi-automatic belay device while unknown belay devices were used in 2 accidents.
Nothing suprising there then, since the DAV climbing wall studies show 58% of people use tube devices, 15% auto tube, 17% semi-automatic (GriGri et al)and 10% others it looks like it´s a draw.
Most people ignore Klever since they only represent 33 of the 290 climbing walls in Germany.
For those keen on German accident research and the relevant published articles on the pro´s and con´s of various belay devices it is worth noting how often the name Christian Semmel appears. He previously worked in DAV Safety Research and now has a commercial interest as designer of an auto-tube device, the Salewa Ergo.
Harald Swen · · Oisterwijk · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0

What happened in Germany was that Klever (who represent +/- 10% of German climbing gyms) made a statement earlier this year that only assisted braking devices* would be used during courses in climbing gyms represented by Klever.

There is off course logic behind this. Everybody knows it is not the belay device at fault, but the user. But if data show there's significantly more accidents due to pilot-error with a certain type of belay device, than it is fair to suggest using another type of device - in a specific situation!

Gathering evidence to support such data is difficult though. Toproping and belaying a leader are not the same - there's a difference between the type of accidents and the role belay devices play. I can't back this up with solid data, but being professionally involved with analysing climbing accidents and the usage of equipment/instruction of novices, the data I have lead me to believe it is safer to use assisted braking devices when belaying a leader in a climbing gym, but just equally safe to use non-assisted and assisted devices while toproping. I dont have the time to go into details - sorry!

  • Petzl Gri-Gri, Edelrid Eddy, Climbing Technology Click-Up, Mammut Smart, Edelrid Mega-Jul, etc.
Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
20 kN wrote: I dont think anyone can honestly argue that forcing someone to use a belay device they are not experienced with, regardless of the advantages of said action, is truly safer than just allowing that user to use the device he is experienced with. If you roped up with someone you dident know and said "bro, I need you to use the GriGri" and your partner said "Well, I have been using the ATC for years, but I really dont know much about the GriGri", would you still think the GriGri would be the way to go?
Either way I'd want passable odds that they are really able to use the device. At a gym where they are required to learn and demonstrate GriGri skills for the belay test and use a GriGri for all their TR belaying, I wouldn't have reservation about it on top-rope. I wouldn't take a stranger's word by itself that they are skilled at an ATC, so having passed the belay test would be as much proof that they could use a GriGri as their word that they could use an ATC.

Outside, I would strive to avoid the situation. If I needed them to use a GriGri, taught them how, trusted their ability to retain and apply the skill, and we both felt good about it, I'd would say it was the way to go. If I didn't feel good about it but still needed them to use the GriGri, I'd choose to not climb, or climb something that I was comfortable soloing until I got to know them better and could trust their ATC skills.

20 kN wrote: As far as the belay test goes, they need to continue with it. But the many of the tests are poorly written and even more poorly enforced. Test takers illustrate good technique during the test, then revert to poorer technique in the field without being corrected by the staff. The main priority should be enforcement of proper technique, since the belay test is just a single test that only matters at the time it's administered.
Yeah, enforcement is key. At my gym, they'll say something, and are likely to yank your belay card and force you to retest. I see the belay test as one tool for training. But the training needs to stick no matter how it's delivered.
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I was both surprised and impressed the other night by one of the young women working for Movement Denver that I saw twice in one visit say something to belayers about unsafe technique. She walked up and called them out politely on what they were doing, and gave them pointers on how to be safer. Not something I see/hear very often in the gym.

Now they just need to require a fall during their tests. :)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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