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Is it a FA if?

Original Post
Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

A buddy and myself think we snagged a FA yesterday. (He lead it onsight) And that got me thinking more about a personal project of my own. There is a roadcut on the MA-RI border I've been looking at for two years now. We had a chance last year, but my gf got scared (small shoulder on the highway) when we went to rap in. Here's my question:

Is it a FA on ice if you are the first to lead it, but the climb is to any extent easier, because you top-roped it first?

I've never heard this discussed before, but it seems to me, that TR first, without a good freeze-thaw/ renew of the ice, would make the climbing significantly easier than a pristine unclimbed line. Seems like a cop-out.

I'm asking because the lead would be at my upper limit, we have to rap in anyway, and if I am not feeling it we'd probably TR as opposed to pulling the rope for a ground up FA. Yeah I know roadcuts are lame, but the ice climbing scene in RI is pretty lame (if existent) and I would be quite proud if I did grab this one.

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Sounds like a FA to me. It's not like a FA has to be an onsight, a FA could also be a redpoint so having previously TR'ed it really doesn't sound bad.

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507

I'm of the mentality that you call it whatever you want, just don't lie about the specifics. Congrats on the send (when you get it)!

Kristen Fiore · · Burlington, VT · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 3,383

Bottom line, if you lead it before anyone else does, it's an FA.

IMO nothing else matters. If you are the first person to lead it, it's your FA!

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

The FA is whomever ascends first. How the ascent is made does not matter as long as the style is noted. There are lots of FA that are TRs. Later they might get a lead.

sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445

I think it's gotta be led to be an FA. First one to lead it. Hang dog it for weeks if you have to. But, IMO, an FA has to be led.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

It's not an FA if you don't have basic grammar. A FA? No. An FA. Ok. Her dee derrrr!

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711

Legal??

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
KrisFiore wrote:Bottom line, if you lead it before anyone else does, it's an FA. IMO nothing else matters. If you are the first person to lead it, it's your FA!
That's FFA, not FA. FA is typically the route equiper. The first person to reach the top, regardless of how he did it. The guy who crated the route. The FFA is the first person to redpoint the route.

In summary:

FA: Route equiper; the dude who created the route

FFA: First person to redpoint, flash or onsight the route.
Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

HAHAHA, I figured with a title like this I'd spark some interest... and you guys are roaring! But what about ICE? Brian SLC you must have an opinion.

I think this question goes to the greater ethics within yourself. I know if I beat the hell out of a column and then was able to hook it on lead. It would sting in the back of my mind, until I was able to lead it again in better style.

Most notably what comes to mind is a rock climb I fist lead in Oct/Nov, 14 cams and two hangs. I returned in Dec and placed 9 cams and completely free. Yet the start was wet and I was all over the place and still placed more gear then I needed to, back cleaned and other monkeying around. I am still craving to get back and climb it in better style.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
Jake Jones wrote: Really? I had no idea. I was under the impression that FFA is "First Free Ascent"- denoted when the original first ascent was an aided style of the route. Can you show me where the route equipper got the first ascent on a route he hasn't ummm... ascended? Perfect example: La Dura Dura. Equipper: Sharma. FA: Ondra I don't have an opinion on lead vs. top rope. If you climbed it clean without falling, or dogging or aiding (if you aided it, then it should get an aid grade as well), I guess you climbed it clean. Of course, you can't go claiming you got it ground up if you do it on TR, but whatever.
Ondra got the FFA.

I'm not sure if they found and worked the line together or if it was Sharma's project and Ondra final freed it.

If it was originally Sharma's project, then undoubtedly he spent countless hours days hang-dogging the route. Going up and down finding the sequence. Pulling on bolts to get to the next hard part and so on. So technically he did ascend the route hence the FA. Then Ondra comes along and frees it, FFA.

If it was a team project and both were working the route and Ondra was the first to send it free the the FFA is also the FA. Sharma gets points for putting in the bolts and the team effort.

To further complicate the matter the one who bolts a sport route ground up essentially has the FA.
A top down bolting job does not give the equipper an FA. Logic has it that the person who spends the time drilling usually gets the first crack at the route. If they then make it to the top by any means necessary, they have an FA.
steve edwards · · SLC, UT · Joined May 2004 · Points: 645

The words equipped and opened used to denote these differences in sport climbing, with equipped for bolting, cleaning, but not being able to free all the moves and opened for the first person to free climb everything but with points of aid. FA (used to be FFA) is for the first redpoint. So Sharma opened LDD and Ondra got the FA. I think this still works in Europe as I heard some Spanish guy recently talking about a route he equipped but couldn't do all the moves on. I'm a fan of this, since equipping is often a major undertaking and I think those people deserve some credit.

A clean TR is a legal ascent. No one will arrest you for claiming it. But it generally gets eclipsed as soon as the route is led free. However, this can get touchy in places where, say, you bolt an established TR and the locals wanted it left as a TR, or were even just too lazy to lead it or bolt it. I've even seen issues when someone leads an established TR on gear and then wants to claim the first and it turns into pissing match as in these situations someone will always say they'd already led it, usually in the 70s. On acid. I've seen this even on routes that are WAY harder than the standard of the time. Kind of like Maestri's defenders on a much smaller scale. Anyway, if this is something that's been tr'd for a long time I'd expect a little local controversy.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Jake Jones wrote: That's just what I mean though. Sharma bolted it top down. Ondra freed it before anyone else. So yes, technically Ondra got the FA and the FFA simultaneously. But if you're dogging and/or using points of aid to ascend, then why does it matter so much if you bolted top down or bottom up? So, I can go bolt something ground up, dog the shit out of it, and call it a first ascent? Do I have to (meaning "should I") denote somewhere that I dogged the shit out of it and did not free it in order to get the FA? Or is this just where my own moral compass and resistance to chuffery comes into play? I mean technically if you go bolt to bolt- regardless of difficulty of the free climbing, you're not free climbing it, you're using points of aid or rest in order to ascend. And that's cool- but what, if anything, exists to differentiate routes that are bolted ground up and ascended free, and those that are bolted ground up and ascended by means of dogging and/or points of aid? By this definition, no one would ever know if someone dogged a route to the top or if they freed it, until someone comes along afterward and actually frees it and subsequently claims the FFA. But, if there is no knowledge that the FA was completed with dogging or aiding tactics (again, nothing wrong with this- just a point of contention) then I imagine there would be less motivation to some to go snag the "FFA". In other words, if there is nothing to distinguish the FA from an FFA, then how is anyone to know that an FFA is up for grabs? Something seems off about this to me. Or perhaps I'm just thinking about it the wrong way. Regardless, thanks for the clarification.
Jake, you are right, in the context of sport climbing no one differentiates between the FA and the FFA. Sharma has never claimed the FA on La Dura Dura even though he certainly aided to the top first, Ondra got the FFA which in sport climbing is just considered the FA. I've bolted routes, hangdogged my way up them and opened them up to others for the "FA". The only credit i get is as the route equipper, not the FA.
Padraig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 100

Maybe it's me, but I think the meat of the question is being lost with the sport climbing analogy. Remember, he's talking about ice climbing. It seems the OP is asking about whether climbing a potentially picked out / stepped out flow can be claimed. For the sake of analogy only (and not to suggest the conditions after TRing the line were this bad), in the most drastic sense this could be compared to climbing a ladder leaned against a slab and claiming the FA. The next time some one might try it (after the thaw/freeze cycles that revive ice climbs) the ladder is gone.

My answer to the original question would be yeah, you got the FA, but maybe put a disclaimer of what grade you climbed it in for all the people who follow that want to know about style. "I climbed x route (WI4) in WI4- picked out conditions," or "I climbed x route (WI5) after chopping steps to make it WI3-."

What would you say if you walked up to a hard trade route at the end of a busy weekend where it's been stepped out? Or if you weave back and forth on a wide flow to follow the easiest line instead of heading up the steepest, longest pillar? Did you climb it at its hardest grade, or do you adjust?

If the route was a ton of fun, go back after it's had a chance to rebuild and send it.

Tyler Phillips · · Cottonwood Heights, UT · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 3,195
20 kN wrote: That's FFA, not FA. FA is typically the route equiper. The first person to reach the top, regardless of how he did it. The guy who crated the route. The FFA is the first person to redpoint the route. In summary: FA: Route equiper; the dude who created the route FFA: First person to redpoint, flash or onsight the route.
Yup this. End of discussion.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Tom Sherman wrote:A buddy and myself think we snagged a FA yesterday. (He lead it onsight) And that got me thinking more about a personal project of my own. There is a roadcut on the MA-RI border I've been looking at for two years now. We had a chance last year, but my gf got scared (small shoulder on the highway) when we went to rap in. Here's my question: Is it a FA on ice if you are the first to lead it, but the climb is to any extent easier, because you top-roped it first? I've never heard this discussed before, but it seems to me, that TR first, without a good freeze-thaw/ renew of the ice, would make the climbing significantly easier than a pristine unclimbed line. Seems like a cop-out. I'm asking because the lead would be at my upper limit, we have to rap in anyway, and if I am not feeling it we'd probably TR as opposed to pulling the rope for a ground up FA. Yeah I know roadcuts are lame, but the ice climbing scene in RI is pretty lame (if existent) and I would be quite proud if I did grab this one.
A) It's probably been climbed.

B) Just pull the rope and lead it. If it's over your head, downclimb or bail off ice screws. Sounds like you have an easy top access anyway, so you can clean your screws on rappel - you don't even have to construct a V-thread. If it's over your head, come with a stronger partner, let them lead - you could either TR or lead, you'd still get an FA credit as an FA party. But if it's a lame 20' roadcut, it's probably not worth it - hack crap out of it on TR...

The whole point of climbing a new ice line is the adventure of the unknown and sticking your tools into virgin ice - previewing on TR is lame. Most people don't do it for the FA credit, or should I say just for the sake of the FA credit...
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804

Tom,

Where on the RI-MA line? I may be able to tell you if it has been climbed. Back in the day a friend of mine (deceased) that lived in Lincoln climbed a lot of illegal road cuts in the northern RI area.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Steve Levin wrote: A very strange and limited interpretation of a first ascent, particularly regarding an ice climb. And what about an aid climb?
How is it a limited interpretation? I basically said that the dude that reaches the top of the route first gets the FA. I dont see how I could widen the scope of that anymore. And what about an aid climb? Same thing. The dude that starts at the base of the climb, works his way figuring out where he wants his line to go, and then reaches the top gets the FA. There are no FFAs in aid climbing unless the line is completely free climbed.

A better way to look at it would be to consider some long, remote alpine grade VI or VII ice/ aid/ free/ mixed climb out in the middle of nowhere where the line might only get a few repeats every five years. No doubt a line like that is bold and the FA is well deserving of his title. So are we going to say that because the FA may have pulled on some gear and aided some sections that he dident get the FA? The dude started at the base, he maneuvered along the route and determined where he wants the line to go, and he reached the top. FA. Done. Now if someone comes along and repeats the line without weighting the rope or pulling on gear the entire time, okay FFA.
Nico C · · mt shasta, ca · Joined May 2013 · Points: 55

Not that complicated. First ascent is the first person to person to lead it. Top rope all you want first.

Now top rope only as a first ascent - that's hilarious.

Cmon guys this hasn't really even been debatable for decades.

In my opinion don't even worry or think about such things unless it's a particularly notable/classic/bold/prominent/difficult line - especially with obscure ice. Just have fun and be safe.

Lots of randoms have climbed lots of stuff over the years withOut it being published in a guidebook. Internet accounts are new and far from complete. If it's visible, accessible, doable, and near a decent sized climber population it's prob been done.

If you must spray wait until until you've interviewed lots of locals and especially older resident hardmen to effectively rule out the likelihood of previous sends.

Easy to brag about a FA only to find out that it's been soloed way back when by someone with heavier tools and bigger balls than you.

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433
Brian wrote:Tom, Where on the RI-MA line? I may be able to tell you if it has been climbed. Back in the day a friend of mine (deceased) that lived in Lincoln climbed a lot of illegal road cuts in the northern RI area.
Brian,
I think I discussed it with you or one of the other guys from ClimbRI. This is Tiverton, just before the Fish Rd. exit sign on 24N. Last year there was a beautiful flow nearly 60', probably 20-40' west of the sign. It looks to me that that flow isn't in at all, but another smaller flow 100-120' west of the sign has potential to form a climbable line in the coming weeks.

If you know the area it has a very accessible abandon trail system on the top side, even a secluded lot to park in that you'd never find unless you checked Google Earth. Some abandoned foundations in the area as well, that probably date from the time the land for the highway was acquired.

I was operating that I was gonna climb it, think to myself that I grabbed the FA and then start reaching out for the history of it after/ researching online. I don't even know how long 24 has been there, or if they did more blasting with the construction of the new Sakonnet Bridge. Climb First Ask Questions Later!

EDIT: Brian are you going to jump into action and come to do the dirty work? Haha, still haven't seen you climb ice, and have been meaning to inquire about the Eiger photos since I saw them on MP. I'm just waiting for this to form up, then going to jump on it, be it day or night. Just hoping Ash will give me a belay this time.
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Tom Sherman wrote: Brian, I think I discussed it with you or one of the other guys from ClimbRI. This is Tiverton, just before the Fish Rd. exit sign on 24N. Last year there was a beautiful flow nearly 60', probably 20-40' west of the sign. It looks to me that that flow isn't in at all, but another smaller flow 100-120' west of the sign has potential to form a climbable line in the coming weeks. If you know the area it has a very accessible abandon trail system on the top side, even a secluded lot to park in that you'd never find unless you checked Google Earth. Some abandoned foundations in the area as well, that probably date from the time the land for the highway was acquired. I was operating that I was gonna climb it, think to myself that I grabbed the FA and then start reaching out for the history of it after/ researching online. I don't even know how long 24 has been there, or if they did more blasting with the construction of the new Sakonnet Bridge. Climb First Ask Questions Later! EDIT: Brian are you going to jump into action and come to do the dirty work? Haha, still haven't seen you climb ice, and have been meaning to inquire about the Eiger photos since I saw them on MP. I'm just waiting for this to form up, then going to jump on it, be it day or night. Just hoping Ash will give me a belay this time.
Good luck with that. Definitely virgin ice. The (newly expanded) road cut hasn't been there that long. The crux is not getting arrested.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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