Big Fall. looking for critique

So, keeping in mind guideline no. 1 "don't be a Jerk" and the fact that I am in a lot of pain right now. I would like to open up for some general critique on what could have been done better with the pictured situation. Hopefully others can learn from my fall and avoid the same. I struggled to place the third screw at the highest pictured location and eventually failed to place it. I am not entirely clear what happened next but I slipped and I did pull out the ice screw that is below me in the photo on my way down, I then decked :( was out cold for a while and then loopy for hours. Full CT scan showed no major damage but I am sure there will be pain to haunt me from this fall. Twisted ankle, twisted knee, back pain, bruised rib, some cuts on face, and EVERYTHING is sore. More than anything I feel lucky to be walking today, well, lets be honest I am hobbling.

From my own perspective, here is what I think I should have done better:
Practiced more for an ice lead. Used a longer second screw. Possibly placed more screws.
Best,
Kyle

highest point
from below
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Can't really tell from the photo and I'm sure nobody got a chance to look at the spot where the screw blew out but how was the 2nd placement angled? Did you chip down for solid ice? I guess you could have thrown a screamer on there but the advice I've heard always seems to be "just don't fall". How long was the screw that blew?

I'm a total gumby so just a few thoughts that might or might not be relevant. Hope you bounce back soon.

Sorry to hear about your fall, sounds like some scary shit. I hope you have a speedy recovery!

Why did you struggle to place the ice screw?
Also, did you not have a stable position for your feet to stand there awhile? The picture shows your feet in an awkward position where your left is high and not supporting your weight.
Finally, as a relatively new lead climber, it may have been more prudent to place your second ice screw lower as to prevent decking - the second pic shows a primo spot to place a second screw.

The screw was short, maybe 4"? There was a screamer on it but it did not start to tear out. Agreed I should not have been struggling. Probably should have done a mock lead. I have done this climb many times without falls, lead got the best of me.

Kyle Cobbler wrote:The screw was short, maybe 4"? There was a screamer on it but it did not start to tear out. Agreed I should not have been struggling. Probably should have done a mock lead. I have done this climb many times without falls, lead got the best of me.

Not saying that 13cm or 16cm would have stopped you but, in the grand scheme of little things adding up, a few more threads might have helped. Also making sure the screw is angled up into the ice so you're pulling on threads if you fall and not levering the screw down to shatter the ice below it.

Not sure what happened, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in, but if the screamer didn't even start to activate then it sounds like the screw had no holding power at all. Just checked and Yates activation is 2kn, I'd assume other products are similar. Did you clear some ice before placing the screw or just drive the 10cm straight in?

I believe I cleared a little ice, probably not enough. I believe I know the answer to this before asking but would and arette vs back of a chimney screw placement change things?

Glad to hear you are "ok". I am sure you have ran the scenarios in your head, what you did wrong, what could be better...

I think the main thing here is prevention. Couple thoughts (thoughts, nothing hard and fast here):
1) Place screws close and often at the start, as you get higher you can run it out longer. Not always possible on ice b/c it is so condition dependent.
2) Practice placing screws on the ground. The beautiful thing about ice pro is you can practice it on the ground and just keep traversing back and forth.
3) Practice down climbing.
4) Practice something to anchor with tools in a Oh Crap! scenario. It may be flipping the rope under a tool and weighting it, a quickdraw through the tool on the bottom...something like that.
5) I think the mentality needs to be to fight for good pro rather than climbing. Will Gadd talks about it A LOT. I am not on lead in that picture so I dont know but going from good stance to good stance is key. Once at a good stance chip away at the crappy ice for the good stuff.
6) Need to back off sooner and not deciding to back off when you are getting pumped.

I found an article on NE Ice couple years back that I thought was fantastic. Ill try to find it for ya. Hope you have a speedy recovery.

EDIT: neice.com/2012/03/protectin…

Final thoughts: How was your heel? Was it up or down? Are your crampons a good fit? Were your secondary pts engaged?

As a new ice leader, I'm really appreciating the advice given here. It can be hard to keep my ego in check but I'd rather bail off than get hurt.

Nick,
This post is for people like you, and me. Lead on rock quite a bit this was the first ice attempt... and fail... sigh

Final thoughts: How was your heel? Was it up or down? Are your crampons a good fit? Were your secondary pts engaged?

Heel was up and down and all around, I was at that spot for too long, and the flash pump was getting to me, almost dropped the screw a couple times and knew I was a little up shit creek at the time, but thought I had a good enough stance to place gear. Crampons are a good fit, secondary points were engaged.

You might try this.
kellycordes.com/2013/01/06/…

Dave Schultz wrote: WTF - you never led any ice and jumped on that ... At least you beat Darwin.

^^Probably not the nicest way of saying it, but good point. Looks like maybe a bad choice for a 1st ice lead (but hard to say from looking at pix on internet).
I only climb ice on toprope and infrequently. All that I have ever learned avbout ice climbing says that you should have very extensive experience ice climbing before you even think about leading and then you can "never fall" (kind of like free soloing rock).
Seems like a good idea to do 1st lead on very easy, short, lower angle ice....

Sorry you were injured.

@Dave Point taken. Also a great example of the attitude that comes with living in the NE. I was aware of the risks and paid for them, the point here is how to avoid them in the future, for myself as well as others. I think it is more important for us to share our failures than our successes. I was nervous posting this but did it so that all could benefit from my failure. Sure I have climbed quite a bit with very minor injuries and little to no real accidents. I think that is why so important for us to analyze what went wrong when something does.

Kyle, glad that you're OK.

I think a big mistake was letting yourself get tired. Forearm pump should never be the reason for a fall on ice.

Keep close tabs on how your arms are feeling, and know exactly how they will recover during rests. Rest enough to keep strong for the entire pitch. If simply shaking out isn't sufficient, slam a SOLID stick into the ice and clip yourself to the tool. Do this before you start getting desperate.

The goal is to lead smoothly, strong, and in good style. However, sometimes a lead will throw you a curve ball and be harder than expected. If that happens, your number one goal is to not get hurt, screw style. Everyone would rather wait while you rest on a tool than drag your body back to the car.

Well, glad you weren't hurt worse than you were.

You are braver than I for:
1.leading ice in the 1st place
2. posting this on MP (tough audience)

Dobsen that is great advice at some point I found myself wondering if leashes would have saved my ass, I believe they would have. Leashes or no, a sling or screamer clipped to one of my axes and harness would have saved the day, I had the time and stance to do so easily and one axe was burried.

@jim Like I said, I personally believe it is more important for us to post failures when they do happen than all our successes. Then every one learns. Plenty of pro climbers/mountaineers who are in the grave for simply rapping off the ends of the rope, had no one shared that knowledge when it happened everyone would learn the hard way and no one would tie knots in their ropes. I personally know someone that has been climbing 30+ years and was belayed off the end of a 60M rope on a 70M climb. These things happen, no one wants it to happen, how do we avoid it in the future.

Kyle, I'm glad you are okay, but seriously, if you ever have doubts about your ability to essentially solo a piece of ice then don't get on it. Its not rock and its not okay to accept falling as a high-possibility outcome. It really is that simple. In the link below you will note that Will Gadd states that he has never fallen while leading ice. And that's coming from arguably one of the most BA ice monkeys of our generation.

I would suggest to you that you read Will Gadd's post (see the link below) about falling on ice. He is more or less critiquing a very similar situation to your own. (And in case you are unaware, Will's advice is light years more worthwhile than anything you are going to get here on MP....my own advice included).

gravsports.blogspot.com/201…

Glad you are alive!

The big thing with leading ice is PATIENCE!!!!!!!!

It takes time to place screws and it sometimes takes time to find good ice for your pick or pons and several swings to drive em home. Seems like you freaked and THAT is the cause. Next time just tell yourself that you may be digging around or whatever but you WILL get a good placement. But.....

The big rule is : DON'T SETTLE FOR BAD PLACEMENTS!!!! (Picks, pons or screws)

So practice grabbing screws off of your racking biner or clipper, the same hand position used to start to drive them btw, and gear goes to your side, out a ways enough to the side that your are not off balance or having to lean to get out of the way as you turn and low enough that you can press in with your hips.

Also. take the time to rake out a good shelf for each crampon, so you can stand on the bottom points and be in a stable and resting position. From the picture it looks like you are on your front points and not on your bottom points. Beginners often don't keep their heels level and/or stable (not moving) and blow a crampon for this reason.

Also, place your tools up high THEN start with the screws, looks to me like your left tool is kinda in the way.

As for where you placed the screws two things:

1. I like to place a screw where I have just pulled off a dinner plate, and it looked like you just sunk a screw in without digging. Especially with a 13cm screw, it is always good to clear brittle surface ice.

2. You should have placed your gear off on the vertical column to your right even though you were climbing just to its left. It appears to run pretty unbroken through the hard part, and offers much better placements than low angle shelves and bulges. Reasons are:

a. If you do fall, you are not above the piece and much more likely to NOT be flipped upside down and land on your head/neck/back. The rule about keeping the rope from between your legs (if possible) applies in ice climbing too.

b. Vertical ice is usually under more tension (i.e. the compression from the ice above it) and also doesn't tend to have convex surfaces, pockets of ice/snow, etc. See all that snow on the bulges? That gets bonded to the ice and so you have to be more than a little suspicious of the actual quality and strength of the ice where it forms little bulges and shelves. Generally you want to be standing on lower angle ice and placing screws on vertical ice.

Peace!

At what height were you placing the screws? From the top picture, if that's a draw I see, it looks like you were placing it above or at head height. This might have contributed to the pump and difficulties in placing it as you got tired. Placing it from chest height can help with leverage and less exertion.

Hope you heal up quickly.