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Denali West Buttress - ski and crevasse questions

Original Post
MyFeetHurt · · Glenwood, CO · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 10

I may have a trip lined up to try this route in starting in early/mid May, but have a couple questions:

1. What are your thoughts on a two person team given the crevasses on the route? I've been on glaciers and have training, but not a ton of experience on them yet.

2. I hear skis are great on this route for a quick exit, how reasonable is it to ski with mountaineering boots and fat XC skis with a giant pack and sled? I'd rather not take two pairs of boots and we all know skiing with mountaineering boots is sketchy at best. But if the lower route is super mellow then maybe this is not a bad idea compared to slowshoes???

Thoughts?

yetibreath · · Nederland, CO · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 10

I climbed Denali many moons ago as part of a three person team and we used skis. Like you, we didn't want to carry two pairs of boots, so we used Ramer bindings on the best AT skis that were available at the time. Ramer bindings worked well, but are not available today. There are a few AT bindings that work with double climbing boots. Silvretta bindings are good and readily available on line. There may be others, so shop around. My skis were 180cm long, and even though AT skis are shorter and fatter today, I wouldn't recommend anything shorter. Remember your goal shouldn't be to make the best turns possible, but rather to bridge hidden crevasses safely.

Skiing with sleds can be a challenge, especially going down hill. The trick is keeping the sled from catching up or passing as you ski down. You will need a loop or two of cord or webbing under the sled to slow it down just the right amount. We spent an entire day at St Mary's glacier fine tuning this. It was time well spent.

Finally, practice crevasse rescue. It's a little more complicated with skis. In addition to removing and securing your pack and sled, you also need to remove your skis and attach them to the rope. You need to get out of the crevasse first (to prevent hypothermia) and your junk is removed later. Also, practice skiing as a team roped together. That presents a whole new set of challenges. Good luck.

wargowsky · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 0

1) plenty of people do it. You'll see people ski down unroped. 3+ would be ideal, but 2 could work. make sure you know how to get out of your pack/sled and skis while hanging on a rope.

2)I've skied down from 11k on a pair of short skis with silvretta bindings wearing spantiks. It works, but its not fun. climbing boots don't give enough support. Its really hard to drive skis in climbing boots, especially if you're on fat skis. Everyone on our team agreed that an extra 6 or 7lbs for ski boots would have been worth it to make skiing more enjoyable. As much as I hate to do it, when i go back next year, I'll be taking a pair of light ski boots.

Poles for your sled will be very helpful.You wont see many people use them, but its totally worth it. They keep the sled upright and keep it from running up the back of your skis. It was painful to watch all the people pulling upside down sleds, rolling sleds, and getting knocked off their feet when the sled rode up behind them. If you pack it right and use poles, the sled will stay behind you and upright, even when sidehilling

And practice skiing with a sled and on a rope team. It'll be time well spent. Good luck and have fun!

christoph benells · · tahoma · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 306

1) many people do a two person team or even solo, there is generally lots of wands around all the crevasses and a trail up to the camps.

There are lots of other climbers, guides and rangers around, but you should always be self sufficient. The chance of actually stopping a crevasse fall with a 2 person team, with 100lbs of sleds and packs though is pretty questionable. Then again the chance of actually falling in a crevasse is mitigated by how much business the route sees.

2) you could do some scaled skis with silvretta bindings, however you will still need skins. No chance in pulling all that weight with just the scales.

any skis will be better than the snowshoes.

Brian Waters · · Ogden, UT · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 45

1. A two person team is fine, just practice your crevasse rescue skills before the trip. Pretty unlikely you'll punch through any crevasses on skis. A lot of people walk up solo with no problems.

2. Take dynafits. No question, it is totally worth the minimal extra weight of carrying 2 pair of boots. Snowshoes are for guided clients. The best way to descend is to unrope from your partner and straddle the sled. Prepare to be very angry with the world if you use silvrettas.

Clint Helander · · Anchorage, AK · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 612
Brian Waters wrote:. Prepare to be very angry with the world if you use silvrettas.
Why do you say this? I have skied up and down Denali several times with Silvrettas. I've even had many enjoyable ski days at 11K and 14K with them. Long, thin skis are the problem. Get a pair of 165cm or so skis (Rossignol BC 125mm) for example perform wonderfully with Spantiks and Silvrettas.
Brian Waters · · Ogden, UT · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 45

I actually had fun skiing the Spantik/silvretta combo with a light pack, but fully loaded and wrangling the sled was unpleasant. Maybe also because it was raining from about 9k down. I'd definitely go with a light touring or rando setup if I were to do it again.

MyFeetHurt · · Glenwood, CO · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 10

Well I bought some Dynafit TLT5's and mounted a Dynafit binding to some Rossignol BC 125 Nordic skis. Who knows how it will ski but hopefully I'm on the right track for an approach ski and for the lower slopes of Denali.

Still not sure about a 2 person on Denali though.

Scot Hastings · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 35

I climbed WB/Denali two years ago with Baruntses and Silvrettas. As other have said, it wasn't fun, but it worked. That said, I hadn't been properly introduced to the world of AT, so I didn't know any better.

If I were to do it again, I'd honestly consider just rocking my AT boots (Maestrales) for the entire climb. Provided you have a good fit, the climbing part is easy enough to do in AT, and it would be *way* better for the way down.

Otherwise, take two pairs and stash your ski boots with the skis (likely at 11k). It's a drop in the bucket compared to all the other crap you'll be slogging to that point.

As for 2 people, we had 3, but I'd be comfortable repeating with just 2 provided my partner knew his stuff in terms of crevasse rescue. I'd also highly recommend each person carry a real pulley and a proper progress capture device (e.g. microtraxion instead of a prusik) as it makes like *way* easier when hauling someone out.

Mike Tsuji · · SLC · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 437

I did the Messner this year with a buddy and we brought our AT setups and threw spantiks onto the sleds. I would definitely recommend this as it made skiing down way more tolerable. Also it allowed us to ski some laps at 14 camp on rest/weather days.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711

BD Polar Stars and Silvretta 300's. Koflach plastic boots. No problemo.

We were a two person team. Didn't find a slot, thankfully. We unroped for the trip down from 11k all the way to the airstrip. Good snow conditions helped. And, we were fair skiers too.

I broke my ankle in the Ruth a couple years later with the same set up. Hard turn to keep the rope tight at the base of the checkerboard crevasse mess at the base of the Moose's Tooth. Heavy pack, slow twisting fall...but...keep my partner safe. Sorta. Ha ha.

Two person team with heavy sleds and/or packs, skis, and a deep slot you didn't anticipate? Best to avoid. Your chances of avoidance are MUCH better IMHO with skis. Yeah, practice, but, if it happens in real life...you're odds of not having an epic aren't good.

I've built a hasty anchor with skis on a nasty bridge crevasse punch through on St. Elias. Glad to have the skis. More secure than pickets. And, also glad we were a party of three.

I'd consider a Dynafit binding/ski. But, really, I think the ski/binding set up isn't as important specifically if you're a good skier. Would be a huge help if you weren't. I'd get a modern, wide, fairly full size lightweight backcountry ski. You get a lot of ski in the shorter lengths but I'd probably stay with a ski that fit my size (and, the extra length is nice for crossing slots I'd guess).

Ski boots can be had that are fairly warm with a thermofit liner. I'd probably size up a tad to account for the swelling at altitude and not ski a tight boot like I would in the local hills. Warmer sock combo too. I've climbed WI4 in ski boots with a BD Sabretooth crampon so no biggie on Denali. Probably take a set or two of toe shake and warms for summit day, just in case my feet got frosty. Always wondered if a drill, some glue and a set of dynafit toe inserts could be retrofit on a pair of plastic climbing boots...(new stripped down Dynafit bindings especially the toe piece might work in some modified plastic climbing boot...hmmm). I probably wouldn't lock the heel down, but, have a lift for longer uphill stuff might be more comfy.

You pays your money and you takes your chances...

Martin le Roux · · Superior, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 401
MyFeetHurt wrote:Well I bought some Dynafit TLT5's and mounted a Dynafit binding to some Rossignol BC 125 Nordic skis.
Are those are waxless skis? Just wondering how well they'll work on uphills when you're wearing a heavy pack or towing a sled. I haven't tried waxless skis myself but from what I hear their uphill performance isn't as good as AT skis with skins. You could also save weight by switching to AT skis. There are several models with similar dimensions to the BC 125s that weight about 2lbs less (per ski).
christoph benells · · tahoma · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 306

you will definitley still need skins. The scales arent going to help you much, but sounds like a cool setup for other tours with nice easy rolling terrain.

MyFeetHurt · · Glenwood, CO · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 10
Martin le Roux wrote: Are those are waxless skis? Just wondering how well they'll work on uphills when you're wearing a heavy pack or towing a sled. I haven't tried waxless skis myself but from what I hear their uphill performance isn't as good as AT skis with skins. You could also save weight by switching to AT skis. There are several models with similar dimensions to the BC 125s that weight about 2lbs less (per ski).
Yeah they are waxless, but as said above I will definitely need skins on steep stuff. However, I spend a ton of time on XC skis and nothing beats them on rolling terrain as there is no transition period and the occasional 5' hill will not be such an annoyance with this set up. On a tight trail with a pack, I want to be slow coming down anyways. Never tried AT bindings on them though.
MyFeetHurt · · Glenwood, CO · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 10
Martin le Roux wrote: There are several models with similar dimensions to the BC 125s that weight about 2lbs less (per ski).
Since I'm lazy and you did the research, which skis are you speaking of?

I tried my new combo this weekend and it felt pretty good on the the "survival skiing" descent and felt good overall on tight trails with a big pack. On the uphill, the kick scales helped but when coupled with AT boots are mostly useless except on the tiny occasional 10-20' uphill encountered while in downhill mode.

For $370 these skis seemed pretty sweet coupled with my TLT5's!
Clint Helander · · Anchorage, AK · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 612

those skis are the shit, MyFeetHurt! I have taken them on Denali and all over the Alaska Range every season for the last three years. You'll have your skins on most of the time, but the waxless pattern allows you to get a little kick while still having excellent glide (compared to skins) when on the downhills and flats. And they are plenty light, don't listen to the other guy.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Pacific Northwest
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