BAckcountry Skiing

Alexey Dynkin wrote: Hmm...at the risk of diverting the thread and starting a long debate, I'll point out that it seems like with many of the recent avalanche fatalities, the victim(s) were in fact carrying gear and knew how to use it. This is not to say that one shouldn't carry gear, but to emphasize that "don't be that guy" should mean first and foremost to stay out of avy terrain in the first place.

Well ok the BEST way to stay safe is not to BC ski at all.
Second stay out of avy terrain (32 and below, no traps)

One thing I do notice to emphasize your point, although the danger is highest on certain slopes and aspects without fail that's where people are getting caught. It's not rocket science...well kinda, but staying off those slopes is.

Alexey Dynkin wrote: This is not to say that one shouldn't carry gear, but to emphasize that "don't be that guy" should mean first and foremost to stay out of avy terrain in the first place.

Uh, in Colorado that would mean staying home.

Learning about avalanches: good. Having and being proficient with beacon, probe & shovel: good. But these mitigate only one of the main hazards, suffocation, and then only if someone is spared to dig you out almost immediately.

(BTW, tree wells kill more people than avalanches. Just saying...)

Trauma kills just as many. Even a small, soft slide can slam you into a tree, rock or over a drop (been there, done that). Hard slab slides will kill you on their own.

Other skiers can/will trigger a slide that could kill you. The worst slide I was every caught in (size 4) was triggered by a party on the opposite side of a V-shaped valley. If the timing had been different, all five of us would have been killed as we put on our skins, buried 50ft deep in debris. As it was, we finished skinning-up and had climbed up about 40ft before it hit us.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that suffocation in an avalanche is only one of the hazards, and that back-country skiing is always risky no matter how much gear/training/judgement you have.

One thing no one has mentioned: Even a sprained ankle can kill you. It's mid-afternoon, you're two miles in, and have a radio or phone. A rescue party can take hours to get there. Sometimes not until the next morning. If you don't have enough gear and knowledge to spend the night (a -20F drop), you're gonna lose body parts or possibly your life.

So am I trying to warn you off? No. Just be aware and don't ski alone.

Scott McMahon wrote: Yup...FYI you are going to see alot of people in Loveland and Berthoud without avy gear. You can get away with that on alot of the slopes due to angle and sheer traffic, but don't be that guy. They call them accidents for a reason. I just assume the snowpack always sucks in CO, and am careful until July when I put my board away. Be safe!

if you ever ski with someone who doesn't have gear and/or doesnt know how to use it, to me its the same as signing your own death certificate.

natural selection at its finest!

John Byrnes wrote: Uh, in Colorado that would mean staying home.

I used to think that, but am coming around... You can have a plenty good day on 25 and < degree slopes and enjoy very low avalanche risk (in general).

Definitely though for Colorado backcounry skiing being conservative is the way to go.

Folks: the subject of risk taking and risk acceptance - whether from avalanche or other factors in the backcountry - is an interesting philosophical discussion, but my comment had a more specific point. To put it more bluntly: having the gear might make some folks might think, "hey, I got my beacon, probe, shovel, I've practiced using them, so I'm good to go, right?" Wrong! The best way to not get killed in avalanches is to not get caught in them. How you do that, whether it's staying at the resort/climbing gym all winter, or being super conservative in your terrain choices, or having a good luck charm, is up to you. Might sound trivial and obvious, yet evidence suggest that it often doesn't work that way.

Alexey Dynkin wrote:Folks: the subject of risk taking and risk acceptance - whether from avalanche or other factors in the backcountry - is an interesting philosophical discussion, but my comment had a more specific point. To put it more bluntly: having the gear might make some folks might think, "hey, I got my beacon, probe, shovel, I've practiced using them, so I'm good to go, right?" Wrong! The best way to not get killed in avalanches is to not get caught in them.

I, at least, am agreeing with you ;-)

Stagg54 wrote: I used to think that, but am coming around... You can have a plenty good day on 25 and < degree slopes and enjoy very low avalanche risk (in general).

Sorry, but it's not that simple. A small convex roll on a 20-degree slope can easily knock you over and bury you. If there happens to be a tree-well there, or a drop, a gully, it's worse.

Small slides can get you. A road-cut or creek-bed for example. I was slammed into a tree by a slough that was only 4" deep and 15' wide on a 25-degree slope. A size .5, but it still injured me badly.

Steepness is only one factor of many in deciding what slope you're gonna ski. This season I've skied slopes from 15 to 50 degrees.

Hell, no one yet has mentioned 40lbs tree-bombs falling on your head...

Damn, John, your experiences are spooky. I'm frankly glad I never got good enough to ski crud and sold my AT setup. Besides, Shelf Road has been good all winter so far. Going to the memorial for a nice guy that got killed in an avalanche just a few weeks ago.

Stich wrote:Damn, John, your experiences are spooky. I'm frankly glad I never got good enough to ski crud and sold my AT setup. Besides, Shelf Road has been good all winter so far. Going to the memorial for a nice guy that got killed in an avalanche just a few weeks ago.

Hey, lemme know if you want to climb at Shelf in the next month. I need to get some real rock under my feet.

I've been caught in 6 slides. Had a partner or two get swept away about the same number of times. Been "involved" in 17 total, but I finally learned enough (or have been lucky enough) that I've been uninvolved for the last 5 or 6 years, except for expected sloughing.

Oh, I've dug someone out of a tree-well too.

I've read about the tree well thing. Sounds f'ing awful all around to be buried in snow.

I am fubar for Shelf for this and next weekend, but after that I will be back on schedule. PM me your number.

Stich wrote:I've read about the tree well thing. Sounds f'ing awful all around to be buried in snow.

It's like being stuffed into a small pipe. You're head down, your arms are pinned to your sides so you can't make an air-space or keep yourself from sliding deeper, your legs are useless. The more you struggle, the more snow falls in, blocking your air supply. Yeah, "fucking-awful" just barely covers it.

Stich wrote:I am fubar for Shelf for this and next weekend, but after that I will be back on schedule. PM me your number.

Done.

John Byrnes wrote: Sorry, but it's not that simple. A small convex roll on a 20-degree slope can easily knock you over and bury you. If there happens to be a tree-well there, or a drop, a gully, it's worse. Small slides can get you. A road-cut or creek-bed for example. I was slammed into a tree by a slough that was only 4" deep and 15' wide on a 25-degree slope. A size .5, but it still injured me badly. Steepness is only one factor of many in deciding what slope you're gonna ski. This season I've skied slopes from 15 to 50 degrees. Hell, no one yet has mentioned 40lbs tree-bombs falling on your head...

This is always my go to example of things that you thing are no biggie...which kill you

avalanche.state.co.us/caic/…

In case you don't feel like reading...

even small slides - terrain trap

Tragic.

The fact that somebody would ski a slope like that (no matter that it's only 40') with a snowpack like this is frightening

youtube.com/watch?v=SdkdHFA…
(skip to 2:25 for the pit)

Goes to show that following the avy forecast every day, reading observations, and paying attention can make all the difference.

Not Colorado specific but just a strong reminder that even the most experienced BC skiers risk their lives every time they go out. World-class experienced crew, managed to dig Dave out, still ended with a tragic loss.

powder.com/stories/news/dav…

John Byrnes wrote: Sorry, but it's not that simple. A small convex roll on a 20-degree slope can easily knock you over and bury you. If there happens to be a tree-well there, or a drop, a gully, it's worse. Small slides can get you. A road-cut or creek-bed for example. I was slammed into a tree by a slough that was only 4" deep and 15' wide on a 25-degree slope. A size .5, but it still injured me badly. Steepness is only one factor of many in deciding what slope you're gonna ski. This season I've skied slopes from 15 to 50 degrees. Hell, no one yet has mentioned 40lbs tree-bombs falling on your head...

That is why I said in general. In general <25 is much less likely to slide. Doesn't mean you can leave you brain at home, but with some common sense you SHOULD be alright...

I always like to think the more fun it looks...the more likely it is to slide.

Stagg54 wrote: That is why I said in general. In general <25 is much less likely to slide. Doesn't mean you can leave you brain at home, but with some common sense you SHOULD be alright...

"In general", I disagree. If you had said, "all else being equal", then yes, I could agree with you.

But there are dozens of factors and they are rarely equal, one slope compared to another, just over there.

John Byrnes wrote: "In general", I disagree. If you had said, "all else being equal", then yes, I could agree with you. But there are dozens of factors and they are rarely equal, one slope compared to another, just over there.

You are right. It is complicated and there are a lot of factors to consider. That was actually my big disappointment when I took my first avy class. I wanted hard and fast rules and there really aren't a whole lot other than if you want to avoid avalanches completely then stay out of avalanche terrain, but that doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun.

Some good info in here, commenting to save.

The fact that the number of fatalities stays the same every year actually means that we are getting better at not getting caught. The number of backcountry users is increasing exponentially, yet the number of accidents remains flat.