Mountain Project Logo

Criticizing Style of Something You Haven't Done?

Original Post
Ladron de Engranajes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 0

So is interesting to me, have seen many people critique the styles used on routes that they cannot climb. I see it regarding hard free climbing, hard aid, etc. what do you think of this? Must you be able to climb the grade to criticize the style?

Not necessarily referring to the dawn wall, but also hard haedpointing.

If your new routes are 5.8's put up "ground up" does that give you the right to lord over those putting up 5.12's top down?

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

boulderer's suck

Wade J. · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25

Of course you have the right to criticize routes you can't climb. Just like you have the right to rap bolt 5.6 or free solo 5.13. Basically you can do whatever you want, just as long as you don't mind be punched in the nose.

Michael Brady · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,316
Tom Sherman wrote:boulderer's suck
so does your mother. Headpointing is bogus. I love getting punched in the nose! :)
Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433
Wade J. wrote:Basically you can do whatever you want, just as long as you don't mind be punched in the nose.
Wade's jacket sucks
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Ladron de Engranajes wrote:So is interesting to me, have seen many people critique the styles used on routes that they cannot climb. I see it regarding hard free climbing, hard aid, etc. what do you think of this? Must you be able to climb the grade to criticize the style? Not necessarily referring to the dawn wall, but also hard haedpointing. If your new routes are 5.8's put up "ground up" does that give you the right to lord over those putting up 5.12's top down?
Are you saying you have to climb above a certain grade in order to have an opinion about climbing or a particular climb?

And also if you are the climber putting up 5.12s - what do you really care if some 5.8 climber criticizes you? Why would that even bother you.

Also lots of people criticized maestri. Most of them have not climbed Cerro Torre. Are you implying all of their criticisms are invalid?
Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270

Totally depends. I think it's hard to criticize cutting edge ascents. It seems that bagging on Harding's send of the dawn wall is weaker than critiquing a 5.14 done in poor style (for the local area). Some things are also pretty obvious. Points 2 and 3 are indicative of Ivan Greene being a jackass

Wade J. · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25
Tom Sherman wrote: Wade's jacket sucks
Rhode Island sucks. It's not even an Island.

And my jacket does suck!
Ladron de Engranajes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 0

Of course you have the right to criticize routes you can't climb. Just like you have the right to rap bolt 5.6 or free solo 5.13. Basically you can do whatever you want, just as long as you don't mind be punched in the nose.

But the chubby 5.6 climber does not understand the rules of climbing radically difficult 5.13 or 5.14 terrain, no?

Are you saying you have to climb above a certain grade in order to have an opinion about climbing or a particular climb?

Probably. The janitor may have an opinion on how to run the Wal-Mart he works at, but doesn't understand the view from the top.

And also if you are the climber putting up 5.12s - what do you really care if some 5.8 climber criticizes you? Why would that even bother you.
Some chubby chuffers of the internet make themselves notorious by spewing vitriol non-stop on here.

Also lots of people criticized maestri. Most of them have not climbed Cerro Torre. Are you implying all of their criticisms are invalid?

Maestri outright lied and never accomplished what he said he did.

Wade J. · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25

It's just climbing, and it's just the internet. Most people don't really care that much.

Thats the great thing about climbing. There are no rules.

Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

OP, Good luck with this campaign...but I have sad news for you....I don't know much about other cultures, but in 'merica...this is the new standard and has been for some time...watching Joe Thiesmann (Hall of Fame Quarterback) debate Brian Kilmeade (reporter for FOX News and bad one at that) in regards to whether it made any difference or if Brady could even tell if his footballs were deflated below the minimum. Kilmeade dismissed Thiesmann on the issue and just kept talking as though he ever threw a football in a game before.

Climbing has been like this for the past decade. Folks have profiles (I meet them all the time) on MP that says they lead X....get them out there and they barely lead Y.....but boy can they talk that talk about the Dawn Wall, etc.

Success has always prob bred jealousy among humans, football, climbing, whatever...but is it more chronic today then ever? It appears to be. Possibly a byproduct of being coddled in childhood, told you are great, given 20 trophies as a kid for just participating vs winning. Told not to let anyone ever tell you you are not up to snuff.

Like I said, good luck with this.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

Troll...

Nick Fuller · · Asheville, NC · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 2

You can critique whatever you want. Like how Chris Sharma should have bolted Jumbo Love on lead - doesn't count otherwise.

Criticizing Sharma...feels like a sin

Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

Anyone can criticize anything they want, there is no qualifications required. That does not make there criticism valid, just their opinion. What people don't have the right to do is be offended by criticism. They don't have the right to punch you in the nose because they disagree.

Tradster · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0
Passive Aggression wrote:Anyone can criticize anything they want, there is no qualifications required. That does not make there criticism valid, just their opinion. What people don't have the right to do is be offended by criticism. They don't have the right to punch you in the nose because they disagree.
They can be offended, that's OK. Just don't smash a person's face in or key their vehicle, etc, etc, etc, because they don't like the messenger's message.
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804

What are you new to Mountain Project? Learn the rules.

You are expected to comment/criticize...

Routes you can't climb.
Accidents you didn't witness.
Gear you've never used.
Places you've never been.
People you've never met.

Get with the program.

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
Dow Williams wrote:OP, Good luck with this campaign...but I have sad news for you....I don't know much about other cultures, but in 'merica...this is the new standard and has been for some time...watching Joe Thiesmann (Hall of Fame Quarterback) debate Brian Kilmeade (reporter for FOX News and bad one at that) in regards to whether it made any difference or if Brady could even tell if his footballs were deflated below the minimum. Kilmeade dismissed Thiesmann on the issue and just kept talking as though he ever threw a football in a game before. Climbing has been like this for the past decade. Folks have profiles (I meet them all the time) on MP that says they lead X....get them out there and they barely lead Y.....but boy can they talk that talk about the Dawn Wall, etc. Success has always prob bred jealousy among humans, football, climbing, whatever...but is it more chronic today then ever? It appears to be. Possibly a byproduct of being coddled in childhood, told you are great, given 20 trophies as a kid for just participating vs winning. Told not to let anyone ever tell you you are not up to snuff. Like I said, good luck with this.
I dislike Kilmeade as much as anyone but that's not what he said. He said that Aikman said that he though TB knew. Nothing more.
ZANE · · Cleveland, OH · Joined May 2011 · Points: 20
Wade J. wrote:Of course you have the right to criticize routes you can't climb. Just like you have the right to rap bolt 5.6 or free solo 5.13. Basically you can do whatever you want, just as long as you don't mind be punched in the nose.
QFT
Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240
Tradster wrote: They can be offended, that's OK. Just don't smash a person's face in or key their vehicle, etc, etc, etc, because they don't like the messenger's message.
Would totally take the fun out of it for me.
Altered Ego · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

I think that it is not okay to be offended. Being offended is a defensive mechanism that the egoic self uses when it feels threatened. The egoic self is not real and the reactive tendencies it drives are not okay. People can and do get offended but it is not okay and they don't have a right to do it.

Consider the effects of the culture of outrage that is prevalent in this country and on this site. It leads to cencorship, that is, it limits our freedom of expresion. It is not okay to limit freedom to comfort feeble minds.

Jacob Smith · · Seattle, WA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 230

I think there are a couple things going on here. Way to try to start a genuine conversation by the way, even if 9/10 responders treat it like I joke I actually do think it's a serious issue.

The first thing is that people seem to have a really hard time judging views and opinions by their intellectual merit rather than by the accomplishment of the person who holds them. a 5.6 climber may be an uneducated moron who has nothing worthwhile to say about elite sport climbing, or they could be someone really smart who simply has better things to do than train in a gym or crag all the time.

I don't think it makes any sense to say that you have to have personally experienced something to have something valuable to say about it. That's not how the world outside of climbing works so why should it be how we operate? Veterans are not the only ones who get to comment on military actions, nor are senators the only ones who get to comment on congress or farmers on factory farming. if there is such a thing as "bad style" anyone should be able to see it and critique it.

That said, I think the way we talk about style is pretty dumb a lot of the time. We act like there is this set, generally agreed upon, scale of bad style to good style and I have get to hear an actually convincing argument for the distinction at all. If you have a problem with the way someone is climbing then come up with a good reason for it, not something along the lines of, "rap bolting is bad because I would never think to do it."

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Criticizing Style of Something You Haven't Done?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.