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New Black Diamond Vipers and new crampon model

Original Post
Forthright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 110

Looks like some cool new stuff from BD at the OR. Looks like the Vipers are carbon.

From Gear Junkie


"Adjustable Axe — The FlickLock pommel on Black Diamond’s Viper is essentially an adjustable grip that you can slide up and down the shaft of the tool. It allows two hands to match on the tool or a single-hand grip while swinging on ice."

"Frontpointer —The Black Diamond Snaggletooth crampons combine a monopoint frontpoint with a second, smaller horizontal frontpoint for switching between snow, mixed terrain, and technical ice on an alpine climb."
Padraig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 100

I wonder if the frontpoints on these crampons will just snap off?

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506
Padraig wrote:I wonder if the frontpoints on these crampons will just snap off?
LOL
Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118

I recently saw a photo of one of the BD athletes climbing with a crampon that had the same tooth profile (can't remember who though). I thought it was a DIY modification for a specific route because there's no way that any crampon manufacturer would be silly enough to make a horizontal monopoint.

The new ice axes look interesting. The Flicklock pommel will probably be substantially more durable than the crappy Trigger on Petzl Quarks. What I can't figure out is how this thing will differentiate itself from the Cobra. Or will they phase out the Cobra? At the very least, the updated geometry for this tool looks like it will be pretty good at minimizing pick shift when matching on the upper pommel. Cobras have pretty significant shift (the most out of any top-end modern tool that I've used) and the reason that I sold mine off.

For the life of me, I can't understand BD's approach to ice tools. They built the Fuel, which is nearly identical to the Fusion. Now they're releasing a Carbon Viper, which appears nearly identical to the Cobra. And for that matter, the original 2nd gen Viper (orange) was basically identical to the Cobra anyway. BD needs to step up their innovation game.

Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989

Forget the carbon vipers, gimme that Stanley growler!

Beer aside, since the Vipers were already the lightest fully-featured technical tool in the line, carbon vipers would be pretty slick. Not sure if the vibration damping will be that useful for what's essentially a mid-range tool, but I've been wrong before.

I also think that BD's design team and design-athletes can be pretty out-of-touch with the needs and usage habits of their customers.

Think the Camalot size restructuring (which I'm still angry about, 8 years later), or the death and return of the Livewire, the death of the Quickwire, the redesign and eventual death of the Blizzard harness, the 3 different designs of the Bionics, the total redesign of their (awesome) headlamps after like 3 years, the upheaval of their packs division...

Mark R · · Bozeman · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 0

Heard that whit magro helped design the crampons for alpine routes with finger cracks. Guess you can cam the horizontal point? Kind of a specific piece of gear though.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Seth Kane wrote:are you sure they're carbon fiber? look aluminum to me.
Yep, not carbon fiber. Adjustable grip thing and new pick angle are pretty cool.

Crampons are funny looking. Interesting idear. Probably rule in stiff neve.
Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

The vipers definitely look aluminum.. and they look pretty sweet if I might add. Looks like a well deserved upgrade from BD.

The crampons look crazy silly to me. I feel like it would make a lot more sense to have a smaller point on both sides, and a large more aggressive point in the middle. I feel like as soon as you get onto any steep terrain or vertical ice that the two different size points would make your feet feel pretty off balanced..

Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 436

Handled the new Vipers at the OR show today.

As others have said, the shaft is aluminum, not carbon fiber.

I'm not particularly impressed with the adjustable upper grip thing.

I don't ever find myself wishing I could move the upper grip to different positions. You are not going to be messing with this while actually climbing, and I can't figure out why you might need to move it up or down the shaft.

It would have made more sense to me to make the lower grip adjustable. Then you could move it up the handle for those times when you want to plunge the shaft into hard snow.

Graham Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0

gotta say, pretty lame offerings from BD. That tool looks an awful lot like a quark. And the crampons? wtf? I like BD, I own a lot of their stuff, but this is pretty lame. Step it up, BD.

Shepido · · CO · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 50

A friend of mine purchased the quarks almost exclusively for the adjustable trigger. He was hoping to use them both as a technical ice tool and also in the spring on steep snow couloirs to climb in high dagger the whole time. I'm not suggesting that is a good use of that adjustable pommel, but that was what drove his purchasing decision ultimately.

Kip Kasper · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 200

If only those crampons were chromoly, I'd pick up a pair instantly... I bet they climb mixed extremely well. As is don't really have any faith in the stainless.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

Looks pretty cool to me..but I have 2nd gen vipers and the same cyborgs and sabertooths for years.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Kai Larson wrote:I'm not particularly impressed with the adjustable upper grip thing. I don't ever find myself wishing I could move the upper grip to different positions. You are not going to be messing with this while actually climbing, and I can't figure out why you might need to move it up or down the shaft.
Funny you mention that... I was checkin' 'em out myself and wondered if I could do it one handed and voila, I did. Not sure I could pull that off with gloves on, or, outside, but, I was surprised how easy they were to adjust.

I guess if you wanted to change position from time-to-time...easy.
Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 436
Brian in SLC wrote: Funny you mention that... I was checkin' 'em out myself and wondered if I could do it one handed and voila, I did. Not sure I could pull that off with gloves on, or, outside, but, I was surprised how easy they were to adjust. I guess if you wanted to change position from time-to-time...easy.
After talking with one of the BD folks at the show, the adjustable upper pommel rest appears to be for long bouts of high dagger climbing on moderate terrain. Move it up for high dagger, move it back down for technical climbing.

Wasn't feasible to make the bottom one adjustable and still keep the strength they wanted.

Looks like a decent all-around tool.
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

The update on the vipers looks like a pretty reasonable update. Nothing really new or exciting, and obviously a response (or copy even) to Petzl's Quark update. Always good to have competition, even for virtually identical products. Perhaps it'll come in at a price point below the Quarks?

Two interesting design notes that I can see. First, it looks like BD has made a change to their pick geometry, with an angled (rather than rounded) tip. Also, t-rated pick out of the box. (EDIT: Correction from Graham below. These are the standard Titan picks, not a redesign of the Laser picks. The change appears to be that they are shipping with Titan, rather than Laser picks)

Also interesting that they appear to be abandoning the hydroformed shaft for the vipers (in favor of a simple aluminum bent tube), but didn't for the fuels. Too bad. I own the fusions, and it's clear to me that one of the reason's they just don't perform as well in ice (as compared to Nomics) is the weight of the shaft. The shaft on the fusions and fuels is the same, so the swing is still very similar (and just not as nice as nomics / x-dreams / whatever). If you're going to release a closer competitor to the Nomics, and you're changing your other tools' shafts anyway, why not change it for the fuels too?

Personally, I'd rather BD copycat the best and compete for price than "innovate" and release second-best products.

The Blueprint Part Dank · · FEMA Region VIII · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 460

Those tools look bad ass. Of course, swinging them will tell the tale. I think the crampons are a great idea, but as others have stated, the applications where they'll really excel aren't incredibly abundant in your average alpine climber's life.

As for the adjustable trigger, I've always been a fan, I think that with enough practice you can really dial in your system with different trigger positions for different angles of terrain.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

I installed the upper hand rests on my Quarks permanently. Wrapping the tools with insulation tape prevents them from adjusting anyway. However, if I was to ever move the rests (I wouldn't) I would prefer the flick lock over the crappy Petxl trigger gimmick.

I think the balance is a more important issue with the Vipers, the hydroformed Vipers have poor balance.

Graham Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0

Shoo - that pick is the Titan pick, which is what all BD tools came with (or some slight variation of) before they all started coming with lasers. So nothing new there - going back to what worked originally. Great all-around pick. I used to replace all my laser picks with titans until I settled on my fusions w/fusion ice picks.

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
Graham Johnson wrote:Shoo - that pick is the Titan pick, which is what all BD tools came with (or some slight variation of) before they all started coming with lasers. So nothing new there - going back to what worked originally. Great all-around pick. I used to replace all my laser picks with titans until I settled on my fusions w/fusion ice picks.
Ah, you are right! Thanks for the correction.
Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188

Just want to point out that the New viper is still hydroformed...

also worth noting is that the old heads attachments will not work with the new head.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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