best example of what happens when you dont extend the pieces under a roof

aside from the obvious questions that have already been debated to death, does anyone know which route this is?

The fact that he had no gear prior to the roof suggested to me that it was relatively easy terrain below. I am guilty of that at times as well when you "can" run it out on easy climbing to your first pro, but that piece better be bomber + multi-directional because it's the last thing that separates you from the ground. Regardless, running it out off the deck is probably not always a good idea. Even if he's worried about rope drag, he can easily extend that piece which is better than nothing.

Heather Dolan wrote:After reading these comments I'm confident that (as always) learning difficult things (trad placement, etc.) first is the way to go. Makes life easier in the long run. :) the instructors life too I imagine.

Learn how to climb cracks before you learn how to place gears. I started out doing mostly crack climbing and only recently started doing more sport and bouldering. It clearly helped with my technique and I was able to climb harder trad route by making more efficient movements (not always just trying to jam the crack straight in). So at the end of the day, focus on the climbing skills first, no need to rush into the whole "trad is better than sport" debate, because it isn't. Being a well-rounded climber will make your life easier in the long run.

The climb appears to be "coronary bypass" at resporation rock, smoke bluffs, squamish

Ill know for sure when i jump on it when it dries out

As to the two pieces acting as a "death triangle" ... This has been answered pretty well up above

Pieces places in close proximity will try to form an central point anchor ... This happens all the time when you TR/lower off 2 horizontal draws ... However its likely not the increase loading which is the issue but thr movement of the 2 pieces towards a central point which cam walk the cams

Whether this is happening on this particular is unclear ... The bottom piece rotates aggresively towards the top piece, likely walking it somewhat ... However this would have happened anyways regardless of the spacing of the cams ... Remeber the rope always wants to straighten out !!!

Regardless the solution to the lower cam rotating that aggresively or the "death triangle" is to simply put a long sling on the lower piece

You can easily test this out next time you TR/lower by using one quickdraw and one sling on the anchors ... The propensity to form a central point is greatly reduced or eliminated

As to folks learning to climb hard before trad ... Thats a judegement call but i see quite a few folks who climb hard sport and while they know how to place individual pieces, dont may not have other skills such as understanding how gear behaves as a system

Its actually quite important if yr going to fall alot in trad

Theres probably a balance somewhere ... For instances ive also seen folks brag about their technical skills yet fall on a 5.4 multiple times

Ive been scratching my head for awhile about how folks could pull gear on bomber squamish granite with staightforward individual placements ... These are climbs ive done and know

Until ive started witnessing a few more of these gear pulls, some with multiple pieces, and climbers who should know how to place gear ...

Now i suspect many of these accidents are because of a misunderstanding of the behavior of gear as a system

I mean how in the world can one pull 3 pieces out of a bomber 5.8 crack that takes purple to yellow camalots .... Each individual placement is very easy and simple

Even a newbie who read a book should be able to get one piece right ...

Coronary Bypass from adventuredime.wordpress.com…

Very interesting thread. Even with my inexperience with cams, and trad protected roof problems, the rope drag and consequent walking of the lower cam was immediately worry. But that aside....

I've had a little, and I do mean a little experience with hand and fist cracks. But I'm wondering what the more experienced of you think about the idea of jamming a foot and one hand and then trying to make a placement further up the crack *before* pulling the roof. Maybe there are just no good placements up there, but as soon as I saw him struggling, that was my first though. I realize this is slightly off topic but I have to ask only because hand and fist jams seem to me like they can be very stable until body movement changes the angles of applied forces, at which point I find my jams sometimes loosen up. So to me it makes sense to protect the move from a placement above the roof before pulling it.

Mathias wrote:So to me it makes sense to protect the move from a placement above the roof before pulling it.

Personally I prefer to protect a route. Route protection means placing gear where it should be placed in order to protect leader *and follower(s)* from hitting anything but air (ledges, obstacles, swinging to faces, etc). It is better to commit to a hard move with a possibility of 20+ feet clean fall on a bomber piece then to stop and to gain extra pump just before the hard move to place a piece that is not make a route safer (ref. "clean fall on a bomber piece"). I would call it a "false sense of safety" - gain no additional safety for a price of a piece of pro (you'll probably need it higher), and extra pump just below the hard move, and time.

Pavel Burov wrote: Personally I prefer to protect a route. Route protection means placing gear where it should be placed in order to protect leader *and follower(s)* from hitting anything but air (ledges, obstacles, swinging to faces, etc). It is better to commit to a hard move with a possibility of 20+ feet clean fall on a bomber piece then to stop and to gain extra pump just before the hard move to place a piece that is not make a route safer (ref. "clean fall on a bomber piece"). I would call it a "false sense of safety" - gain no additional safety for a price of a piece of pro (you'll probably need it higher), and extra pump just below the hard move, and time.

I only do what I read on Mtn. project, the experts here are out of this world. If only I could just climb rock more than once a year I might be able to put all of this to use.

tri cam

The main problem was the camo boonie hat, everyone knows when you wear that cap you should only pull 5.8

At :13 you see the red metolius walk a bunch as he moves up - in my opinion too much for a piece to have confidence in. Poor placements, poor crack technique (his left hand is thrutching about, and no sign of a #4 or #5 on his harness indicates it isn't stacked fists in that corner).

I'd say inexperience is the reason the guy pulled the gear - hopefully he didn't crater because of his partners goading him on.

Maybe if the guy filming him was keeping an eye on his placements it wouldn't have come to this.