Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

bearbreeder wrote: if you want a good explanation read rgolds post on the last page ... he explains it better than i ever would

Old Sag wrote:

"I never said hard death grip. And even a hard death grip I don't think your skin and grip can make that much friction with the rope to make a dent into the falling force of a person. If you can, we would hear a lot more about how someone was saved by his belayer's bare hands or slowing them down enough to prevent death, etc. No, that does not happen."

A few months ago, a friend, using an ATC, was lowering a climber kind of fast. A clump developed on the brake side and when it hit his hand knocked it free from the rope. He struggled to get a hand back on the brake side, but he couldn’t, since the rope was wiggling like a snake. In desperation he grabbed the climber’s side and stopped the fall. The palm side of both hands were burnt significantly.

Decades ago there was a well-known event on the Naked Edge. A climber leaned back, thinking she was tied in. She wasn’t. She fell off the ledge, but, shall we say miraculously, managed to grab a hanging line and to stop herself. Really badly damaged both her hands.

So, it does happen. Infrequently, to be sure.

Rob.calm

There was a bare-handed save in the Gunks years ago too. A roped-up guy who wasn't tied in fell off a ledge. A climber in another party happened to be next to the zipping pile of rope and managed to grab a strand with one hand. He slowed the guy down enough so that he hit the ground with---I think---only bruises from 80 feet up or so, but the "belayer's" hand was very severely burned (maybe down to the bone, but I'm not sure about that part).

There's also the famous "Welcome to the Gunks" story, which was also a bare-handed catch. It deserves a lengthy telling, one that can, I think, be found on the internet, but the short version is that McCarthy fell off the belay ledge at the top of Never Never Land after calling off belay but before actually anchoring to anything. When McCarthy fell, his belayer (Pete Geiser), spun around and grabbed the rope with both hands. Jim plummetted to the ground but was unhurt. Geiser burned his hands.

Mind you, all this was back in the days of real knicker-clad men who could rip pitons from the rock with their bare hands, professionals on a closed track if you will. Do not try this at home.

I learned climbing basics from an old guy named Paul Pedzolt at a little out of the way outfit called NOLS. To me this accident is purely a training issue. The belayer was incompletely or inadequately trained, and perhaps didn't practice enough. As a person that young, it was not her fault. It seems that this was an avoidable accident. I have great hopes for the two injured climbers' recovery - both physical and emotional.

Claude Ingersoll wrote:I learned climbing basics from an old guy named Paul Pedzolt at a little out of the way outfit called NOLS.

There is quite a lot of pure conjecture here by people who weren't even there and close witnesses. As a theoretical study to improve belay technique, there is value, but is it really appropriate to make a personal qualification assessment? Remember who it is you are commenting on.

John Byrnes wrote:I just spoke with an eye-witness to this accident... Trust me, you do not want to be on EITHER end of the rope when this happens!

Tan, it has already been established that the Grigri was threaded correctly. The belayer's sister double checked it was set up correctly before the climber headed up, and it was checked again after the accident. It does sound like a potential case of temporary release of pressure on the cam through action on the climbers side of the rope (maybe a quick grab to regain stability) or interference from the anchor, but we can only make educated guesses.

The take-away, I think, is to be more aware of the potential of once released tension to not re-lockup. I for one have never experienced that. I also have trained myself to clamp both hands onto the brake side of the rope if I get launched and use my feet and body position to ward off getting smashed. First thing should be catching the climber, not your own preservation.

Jesus! Did we really need 17 pages of flaming dribble for this?
There is tons of literature out there (by the manufacturer) on the proper/safe use of these devices!
I suggest doing a little reading? And oh, I don't know...a LOT of practicing?
Just a thought.
Flame on....

SendaGorilla wrote:Jesus! Did we really need 17 pages of flaming dribble for this? There is tons of literature out there (by the manufacturer) on the proper/safe use of these devices! I suggest doing a little reading? And oh, I don't know...a LOT of practicing? Just a thought. Flame on....

I've lost track of who said what, who accepts reality, and who is trying to blame, defend, or claim that Petzl is ignorant of this failure mode. Someone posted the 10-minute Petzl video: How to belay the leader with a Grigri: youtube.com/watch?v=FHdqjjy…

At 6:07 they say: "If you grip the climber's side of the rope too tightly, you run the risk of reducing or even negating the Grigri's braking ability." So, Petzl acknowledges this potential failure mode.

I'm not saying that's what happened in this accident. We'll never know what happened. We know it was loaded correctly, we know the rope was very slick and fed through the Grigri very easily, and we know the belayer had lots of experience belaying with a Grigri.

Nor am I criticizing Petzl or Grigris. I will continue to use one - typically many times per week. But I'm a better belayer for understanding this and other failure modes.

Jake Jones wrote:So what you're saying is... Hold on loosely, but don't let go. If you cling to tightly, you're gonna lose control. With the guide hand, of course. Got it.

when is this thread gonna die…...

Well, we can nuke this one and always start another.

Might as well let this one roll along to advance the egos.

Speaking of, if the GriGri is threaded backwards/incorrect would the Munter technique of a parallel lock off with a slight forward pull be sufficient in catching a fall? Ahh... never mind!

:)

M Sprague wrote: First thing should be catching the climber, not your own preservation.

BigFeet wrote:Well, we can nuke this one and always start another.

Jake Jones wrote:So what you're saying is... Hold on loosely, but don't let go. If you cling to tightly, you're gonna lose control. With the guide hand, of course. Got it.

So what's more important, having a dedicated break hand or not grabbing the climbers side rope?

A broken hand seems pretty important.

A devoted brake hand is a good thing, though.

BigFeet wrote:A broken hand seems pretty important. A devoted brake hand is a good thing, though.