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Best climbs damaged by climbing while rock is wet compendium

R. Moran · · Moab , UT · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 140

You seem smart next time it rains instead of climbing stay home and do a bit more research. Stay off wet sandstone.

Tboy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 0

Here I post a thoughtful question assuming I'd get a thoughtful and kind response. global warming is a myth because it snows every winter still!

StatJuan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Tboy wrote:I tread very carefully after it rains and try to make sure the rock is dry. Recently, I've begun wondering what the science is behind this folklore that rock is weak while wet and then somehow it's strength is returned while dry. As best I can tell, including after emailing some geology professors, it's a pretty unlikely scientific principle. Most of the physical instances that I can find research about do not return strength upon completion of the event. Take freeze thaw for instance, the damage is done and it doesn't return to a pre-wetness strength. The same goes for rock that has a high clay content. The water enters depending upon the hydraulic conductivity of the rock, expands the clay, which then fractures the rock. But at that point, it's broken, and there's nothjng that can "reseal" the fractures (unless you're going to epoxy microfractures). I suppose my point is before we berate people we ought be sure on the science. After all, a mere correlation that perhaps reinforces our confirmation bias is a sorry excuse for evidence of causation. I am completely open to the principle of weak wet rock, I would just like the proponents of a this hypothesis to tell me why.
http://www.academia.edu/5478911/Interpretations_on_how_the_macroscopic_mechanical_behavior_of_sandstone_affected_by_microscopic_properties_Revealed_by_bonded-particle_model Hsieh et al (2008) in Engineering Geology
Section 5 is the one you want, feel free to pass along to your geology professor friends.
Tboy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 0

Thanks statjuan!

R. Moran · · Moab , UT · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 140

Yeah Google sent me back article after article too many different types of Sandstone and methods of metamorphosis or diagenasis to really go into on an Internet forum. So the short synopsis would be don't climb on wet sandstone. As has been illustrated with examples in this posting. Once you've witnessed the destruction first hand it seems pretty obvious.

StatJuan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Tboy wrote:Thanks statjuan!
No removal of your previous post calling the idea folklore? The point of this thread is to convince people this is a poor practice. We'd all be more successful in this endeavor without the Fox News inspired "I'm not a scientist but..." post ending the first page.
Louis Eubank · · Portland, ME · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 181
Tboy wrote:I tread very carefully after it rains and try to make sure the rock is dry. Recently, I've begun wondering what the science is behind this folklore that rock is weak while wet and then somehow it's strength is returned while dry. As best I can tell, including after emailing some geology professors, it's a pretty unlikely scientific principle. Most of the physical instances that I can find research about do not return strength upon completion of the event. Take freeze thaw for instance, the damage is done and it doesn't return to a pre-wetness strength. The same goes for rock that has a high clay content. The water enters depending upon the hydraulic conductivity of the rock, expands the clay, which then fractures the rock. But at that point, it's broken, and there's nothjng that can "reseal" the fractures (unless you're going to epoxy microfractures). I suppose my point is before we berate people we ought be sure on the science. After all, a mere correlation that perhaps reinforces our confirmation bias is a sorry excuse for evidence of causation. I am completely open to the principle of weak wet rock, I would just like the proponents of a this hypothesis to tell me why.
Did you inform said professors that you were asking about sandstone? Because this is a basic principle, and to confuse it with freeze/thaw seems odd. Freeze thaw deals with physical changes in the rock - literally pushing apart micro-stresses in the rock, repeated ad nasueam, causes micro-stresses to become cracks, and eventually for the rock to exfoliate. Wet sandstone, on the other hand, is a chemical difference - it weakens the bond between the matrix materials. This is due to the chemical composition of sandstone. It's comparing apples and oranges, and taking a single Geo 101 or Chem 101 should be sufficient to answer it.

I realize you were asking a genuine question, but don't get annoyed when you ask a question with a healthy dose of snark and then get replies in the same vein.
R. Moran · · Moab , UT · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 140

Right . The two main forms of cement in sandstone are silica, which is not chemically reactive when wet. And calcium carbonate which forms a mild acid when mixed with moisture it becomes very weak. With out taking thin sections of every rock climb you get on and analyzing under a microscope or testing it with hydrochloric acid you can't tell. There can be differences in the cement on the same climb . I.e. the start of a climb could be heavily composed in silica and the top could have mostly CC. There are various other forms of cement as well. Like I posted above too many variations to really delve into all of it so stay off the wet rock please.

EJN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 248

Am I seeing intelligent discourse and science being used on an internet forum, with people being fairly civil? It's a goddamn holiday miracle!

Also, yeah, holds have broken here in Zion. Moonlight buttress has a few blown out crack edges. Crack edges get blown out, the placements on the trade aid routes get more and more blown out. This happens naturally, but climbing while the rock is wet speeds up the process.

Ryan Derrick · · Boulder · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 86
John Wilder wrote: The only decent barometer I've found is checking the ground at the crag. If the ground at the crag is wet, the rock is wet. And not just wet- damp, or sticky counts when taking it into account how wet it is. Dig a bit with the toe of your shoe and see.
This is the best proactive advice to come out of the entire thread.
Mike Bond · · Kentucky · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 3,191

American Sportsman at Wall of Confusion.

A hold at the start and the first big hold as you pull up onto the slab at the end. Both broken sometime in December 2014. Noted on 1/4/15. Old chalk line and sandy remnants were obvious.

Mike Bond · · Kentucky · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 3,191

Rotohammer at Stonewall.

A significant hold broke at the top of the pod. Noted a few years ago.

andy r · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 0

Lots of stuff has broken on the first two warm up boulders in kraft. In terms of the pearl. with the new break it actually is easier now. The new big foot is better for short and tall people alike. right hand start hold is just a side pull now.

Paul Hays · · Carbondale, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 5

If you must climb while the sandstone is wet, please utilize one of the local climbing gyms. I know of at least three pretty decent ones - Red Rock Climbing Center next to Desert Rock Sports, The Refuge bouldering gym, and the Nevada Climbing Center.

Perhaps Red Rock Climbing Center would support this cause by offering a discount to folks that go to the gym rather than risk irreparably damaging our natural lines after a storm.

Jon OBrien · · Nevada · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 917

it's a mistake to think that all visiting climbers know that you shouldn't climb on our sandstone when it is wet. having grown up on the east coast we'd often climb in the rain or immediately after the rain and some of the sandstone of the south east remains strong when wet...

the idea sounds ridiculous to the visiting climber that has flown here on vacation to climb red rock, try to keep that in mind before you berate the uninformed... posting alternative climbing areas, stressing the geology in upcoming guidebooks, and cooperation from the visitor's center(advising visitors or even posting "safe to climb" signs similar to the forest fire danger signs with color spectrum) all sound like good strategies..

Cunning Linguist · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,200

^^^Really good post, Jon. I agree 100% with those ideas. It's like I said about that incident where a Maine-raised climber cut down a tree that people were falling into from a sport climb-if you're from the east coast, you cut down a tree when it's chilly and you want to heat up the living room and some cocoa, it's hard to expect instantaneous adjustment to hi-desert alpine ethics when trees are treated like weeds, removed when they get in the way-they'll grow back.

I really like the idea of the Ok to climb signs at the fee booths, though it would be great to get those going at the southern canyons as well. Maybe the CLC folks will jump on that, or you and I can ply Nick with quality beverages and do some begging? That might be a game changer for non-locals.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Paul Hays wrote: Perhaps Red Rock Climbing Center would support this cause by offering a discount to folks that go to the gym rather than risk irreparably damaging our natural lines after a storm.
Makes good sense in one way, but I am sure that is when business is best already, so financially it doesn't suit them to do so...
Maybe on the first sunny day after a storm - and I bet it is otherwise slow then.
If nothing else the discussion generated about the idea may be useful to educate folks just transitioning to the outdoors.
I mean, if you are cash-strapped and start tracking rain to know when to go too the gym cheaply, then it must be on your mind in the future about the rock and the rain later.
Klimbien · · St.George Orem Denver Vegas · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 455

Here in RR/Vegas we average about 30, if that, days of rain per year….thats 30 days of vulnerability, and often those days are coupled together… I'd be down for making a flyer -a polite one - and the day after it rains, do a quick drove by and slap them on a few windows of cars that are parked, 2 or 3 drive by's per day, split between a few of the locals would be easy… I considered it when I woke up before heading to work. One sad aspect of this is the most recent climber I spoke to who was climbing the day after a heavy rain was a guide and their client who had just flown in from out back east. When I asked if they thought it was to wet the response I got was "well, the sun's out now".

StatJuan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Dylan B. wrote: For most of us it is "folklore," which doesn't mean it's wrong. I know about it because folks have told me about it. Had no idea what the science was. Hence, "folklore." Kudos to him for asking a genuine question and challenging what comes down to us as conventional wisdom. Kudos to those of you who know a bit more and share your knowledge with us plebes. And the irony of science-types telling us to rely on personal anecdotes...!
From Merriam-Webster:
Folklore: ideas or stories that are not true but that many people have heard or read
unless you want to argue that these stories comprise "traditional customs" (the alternative definition).
Kudos to him? He's a google search away. I have no training in geology, all I did was 2 minutes of searching. And I cited a peer-reviewed journal article, if you want to comment on the (agreed upon) irony, perhaps you could quote the post you are referring to rather than mine.
R. Moran · · Moab , UT · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 140

Except when conventional wisdom is actually indesputable fact. The water mixed with the calcium carbonate in the presence of carbon dioxide forms a carbonic acid. THIS ACID degrades the bond holding the sand grains together. It's chemistry. It's science. It's provable in a lab. It's truth. It's not some opinion. Now the whole dictionary pissing contest apology thing that's debatable.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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