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Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Tim Lutz wrote:'Its not the device's fault' I blame yoga pants and sport bras. If those were never invented, I would be a more attentive belayer.
We finally solved the mystery. The best belay device is the one the belayer knows how to use properly and is most comfortable with. now can we quit bickering about different belay devices and just go out and climb?! Or at least go out and see some beautiful women with yoga pants? You people are beating a dead horse.
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507
nicelegs wrote: Why? Because he didn't go on vacation with 20k extra for a medical flight his insurance wouldn't pay? Should he be left in a hospital half a country away racking up bigger out of network fees because he didn't have the money? He did everything right insurance wise, not a lot of people have 20k sitting around. Especially those that work to make the gear you use.
Charity for someone who screwed up while taking unnecessary risk in the pursuit of pure self indulgence, versus someone who truly needs charity and didn't create the situation they find themselves in. Seems absurd to me. American tourist in caymans=charity case?
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
tim wrote: Charity for someone who screwed up while taking unnecessary risk in the pursuit of pure self indulgence, versus someone who truly needs charity and didn't create the situation they find themselves in. Seems absurd to me. American tourist in caymans=charity case?
Should we as a community elect someone (probably you) to just go ahead and kill him then?
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

That'll require a donation to my charity

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
tim wrote:That'll require a donation to my charity
I'm seriously trying to understand your logic here. You didn't give him money, neither did I. It doesn't affect you if you didn't. It literally bears no consequences in your life whatsoever.

Lots of people did give and because they did, Jim can now go home and recover near his family and where his insurance wants him to be.

Your taxes haven't gone up. There are no new phone taps on your identity. Your grandmother isn't getting waterboarded. You read about a guy who you probably don't know that got helped by people you probably don't know and you got pissed.

Even if you love Edelweiss and hate Sterling, I'd venture to say that the influence of his company has positively impacted your life. So how about giving the guy a break or at least keeping your nasty little thoughts to yourself.
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507
nicelegs wrote: I'm seriously trying to understand your logic here. You didn't give him money, neither did I. It doesn't affect you if you didn't. It literally bears no consequences in your life whatsoever. Lots of people did give and because they did, Jim can now go home and recover near his family and where his insurance wants him to be. Your taxes haven't gone up. There are no new phone taps on your identity. Your grandmother isn't getting waterboarded. You read about a guy who you probably don't know that got helped by people you probably don't know and you got pissed. Even if you love Edelweiss and hate Sterling, I'd venture to say that the influence of his company has positively impacted your life. So how about giving the guy a break or at least keeping your nasty little thoughts to yourself.
I guess I'm probably just jealous. Last year on my annual trip to Monaco I was street racing my rental car with some of the locals and let my young nephew take the wheel for only a second. Unfortunately this resulted in a horrendous crash. Needless to say the expenses were astronomical and in the interest of not incurring any of my own debt, I thought it would be a good idea to set up some form of charity for those that would feel bad for my situation. This didn't work out as I was hoping, although I did raise enough to feed an entire third world nation for a day, I still was left with some debt from my unfortunate accident.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
eli poss wrote: We finally solved the mystery. The best belay device is the one the belayer knows how to use properly and is most comfortable with. now can we quit bickering about different belay devices and just go out and climb?! Or at least go out and see some beautiful women with yoga pants? You people are beating a dead horse.
"Its a bit wet, i think ill have another 2 beers before soloing just to be safe" - Crazy Al before free soloing today

Bluffs

Very distracting ...

Partner on kangaroo corner 11a, squamish
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
tim wrote: I guess I'm probably just jealous. Last year on my annual trip to Monaco I was street racing my rental car with some of the locals and let my young nephew take the wheel for only a second. Unfortunately this resulted in a horrendous crash. Needless to say the expenses were astronomical and in the interest of not incurring any of my own debt, I thought it would be a good idea to set up some form of charity for those that would feel bad for my situation. This didn't work out as I was hoping, although I did raise enough to feed an entire third world nation for a day, I still was left with some debt from my unfortunate accident.
Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? No one is forcing you or anyone else to donate. It's the climbing community coming together and helping out one of our own.
mediocre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0
tim wrote: I guess I'm probably just jealous. Last year on my annual trip to Monaco I was street racing my rental car with some of the locals and let my young nephew take the wheel for only a second. Unfortunately this resulted in a horrendous crash. Needless to say the expenses were astronomical and in the interest of not incurring any of my own debt, I thought it would be a good idea to set up some form of charity for those that would feel bad for my situation. This didn't work out as I was hoping, although I did raise enough to feed an entire third world nation for a day, I still was left with some debt from my unfortunate accident.
Really Tim? Sorry for your injuries, but your comparison is about as asinine as the logic I use when I still click on this thread after 9 pages.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

Not all trolls are like Trollanor, incapable of writing a coherent sentence.

You argue w someone like "tim" and you're either:

1) Arguing with a troll, who's trying to get a rise out of you, or

2) Assuming for argument's sake that he's serious, implicitly accepting the utterly ridiculous premise that you may somehow or someway need his permission or approval for how you spend your own money.

There are no good options.

Mort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2004 · Points: 20

I don't have time to read all 1,000 replies to this thread, but I was there the day Jim fell and have a few comments - forgive me if they've been covered already.

My partner and I left Dixon's Wall while Jim and his daughter were on the 10c warmup. He got on Dixon's Delight (11b) next. Someone posted a picture of Dixon's with a climber on this route. You can see the crux where he fell: right where the stalactites and tufas start at the lip of the overhang. He had clipped the bolt over the lip, which is quite easy to do from a right-hand jug pocket. Next, your left hand pinches high on the tufa. Then the crux - moving feet to make the next reach. This is where he fell, from what I was told by the climbers we were staying with. Only 11b, but things were a bit slimy that day. Heat, humidity, and smooth limestone - I've nearly fallen from that move, as have others who have climbed 5.13. Bolt close, short fall, but little friction as the face is steep and smooth.

We spoke with his daughter that evening and to Katie who was taking care of her since she was now on the Brac w/o either parent. Her right hand was bandaged due to the rope burns, but I don't believe there was anything wrong with her left hand. Katie's partner, John, helped take care of Jim at the accident scene. Jim asked him to leave the Grigri and rope as it was. We were staying in the same house with John and Katie, so John brought the rope down. It appeared to be loaded properly. Although Jim's knot had been untied, we guessed which end was which based on the distance of the Grigri from each end. It was a Grigri 2.

Thoughts on what went wrong:
1) Brand new rope (~9.5) and very slick. We could easily and rapidly feed rope through the Grigri "atc-style" (not holding the Grigri open) without it locking up. In fact, it took a really sharp (hard, fast) pull to lock it up. I've noticed this with other new ropes, especially our newest Petzl.

2) Although Jim's daughter was anchored to the ground, Jim was much heavier. She certainly would have been lifted into the air. The anchor may have also made it tougher to maintain balance. When lifted off the ground or knocked off balance, what do we do? Grab the climber's side of the rope because it has tension on it. It's happened to me. Along with the slick, thin rope, this could have been enough to prevent the Grigri from locking. Note that Jim stopped briefly. That could have been the initial automatic locking, which could then have been released when the rope was grabbed.

Hopefully people have now accepted what John Byrnes and the Petzl video say about the dangers of clenching the climber's side of the rope. Last July, right after we bought the Petzl rope I mentioned earlier, I fell while many bolts up on an extension at Maple. The rope ran through many bolts and over several portions of rock. My belayer couldn't see me and was feeding rope when I fell. The Grigri did NOT lock due to the incredibly soft fall due to the friction and rope stretch. Luckily, she pulled back on her break hand and easily locked it up.

We will never know the details of Jim's accident with certainty. What I do know is that my heart goes out to father, daughter, and wife! I just donated to get Jim back home and I hope others will too.

Jeff

Mort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2004 · Points: 20

That last bit about my fall last July was to make the point that a Grigri may fail to lock even when the climber's side isn't clenched. As with our test feeding of Jim's rope, it takes a significant jerk to lock up. Due to the friction in my fall, the pull wasn't sufficient to lock the Grigri. If this can happen, then holding the climber's side could easily exacerbate the problem.

Jeff

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

but if you treat the grigri as you would an atc and seriously hold onto the brake end it isn't a problem. i've caught a bazillion falls with my hand on the feeding side (as you note, when you get yanked into the air your free hand naturally wants to go to the upper rope to stabilize you). the problem isn't grabbing the feeding end. the problem is not seriously grabbing the brake end.

in every case that i have ever read about where someone dropped a climber with a gri gri without the end of the rope slipping through the device (ie lowering off the end of the rope), the accident could have been avoided by seriously grabbing the brake end.

Mort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2004 · Points: 20

What if you seriously grab both? No locking and now you are catching with very little friction and the rope could run through and burn the break hand.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

mort ...

which method of belaying was used at the time of the fall do you know?

- ATC feed method?

- Fast feed method for quick clips (3 fingers on the rope, thumb on cam)?

- old style fast feed (right hand mostly on the device holding down the cam)?

- no brake hand on the rope, holding down the cam?

one thing i find a lot if folks always using the fast feed method (or some other method) for belaying rather than ATC style

while on thick ropes this might be the only real way you can feed out the rope well ... they develop the habit and its sticks with folks when they use thinner ropes where it the rope can zip right through quickly if youre not fast with your reaction time

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Slim, the only thing we know (and, frankly, the only thing you know) is that you haven't encountered the problem. You have an explanation for this, based on something you call seriousness, whose implication is that anyone who does lose control under the rare circumstances that seemed to obtain in this accident is not taking their job seriously. You are turning what could be nothing more than your good fortune into some sort of personal virtue and then suggesting bad things only happen to those who are not sufficiently virtuous.

I think it is unfortunate to dilute the message about real, if rare, potential problems with the Grigri by saying, essentially, that they aren't problems for a "serious" belayer. Among the many things you don't take into account is the fact that there is a considerable range of grip strengths among climbers, and that even if you personally are able to control the fall of someone, much heavier than you with a brand new thin rope (something which may or may not be true), that does not mean that every belayer will be able to do the same. In view of the fact that climbers with weight and strength mismatches gravitate to the Grigri as a way to neutralize potential problems, it is particularly wrong to divert attention from the real problem by holding out your personal experience as being somehow generic.

Surely as an administrator on this site you have some responsibility to help climbers avoid tragedies, even if the circumstances causing them are rare and unknown to you in your personal practice. Isn't it time to live up to that?

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

I pretty much agree w Slim, though I always use gloves to belay and I'm pretty sure that helps with maintaining control of the brake strand. I understand the rationale that Andrew Bisharat provides for not using a glove on the left hand, but I've never had issues w death gripping the climber's side and my ropes are usually so dirty I'm just not interested in having the aluminum/dirt grime on either hand.

If you've caught falls w a grigri in the high hundreds/low thousands without dropping anyone, is it possible that it was just "good fortune"? Yes.

Is it likely? No.

Any way you look at it, the belayer messed up. I'm not saying it's impossible for it to happen to me some day as well. I appreciated the discussion about not death gripping the climber's side, but I guess I just instinctively never did this to begin with, even before reading about it as an issue.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
slim wrote:but if you treat the grigri as you would an atc and seriously hold onto the break end it isn't a problem. i've caught a bazillion falls with my hand on the feeding side (as you note, when you get yanked into the air your free hand naturally wants to go to the upper rope to stabilize you). the problem isn't grabbing the feeding end. the problem is not seriously grabbing the break end. in every case that i have ever read about where someone dropped a climber with a gri gri without the end of the rope slipping through the device (ie lowering off the end of the rope), the accident could have been avoided by seriously grabbing the break end.
brake - can no one spell?
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Eric Engberg wrote: brake - can no one spell?
What r u a spelling nazi? lol Give us a brake will ya!!!
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

I think they're homophones, actually.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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