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Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
mediocre wrote:20 kn, I see your problem right in your last post. You should be tying in with a figure 8, not a bowline.
I use the bowline as a partner competency check. I tie the bowline, and then clearly show it to my partner asking "does my figure eight look good?" You wont believe how many yeses I get. Most of them are from gym climbers. ;)
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Tim Lutz wrote:You stitch a rope through a stitch plate
The educated world uses a Sticht plate. Named after Fritz Sticht who designed equipment for Salewa.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

He invented the tubular ice screw as well.

JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

So - Is there any actual analysis of this accident?

Like an interview with the belayer, or anything? Or is this all hearsay? Did anyone else hear of or witness this accident?

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
JohnnyG wrote:So - Is there any actual analysis of this accident? Like an interview with the belayer, or anything? Or is this all hearsay? Did anyone else hear of or witness this accident?
Actual analysis!? What are you new to Mountain Project?
First there is an announcement of the accident usually by someone who wasn't there.
Second there is wild speculation as to what happened and who or what is to fault.
Third there is name calling and insults when people don't agree.

Well okay, not everyone and if you wade through the pages of BS you may be able to interpret a modicum of useful information.
Lanky · · Tired · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 255
JohnnyG wrote:So - Is there any actual analysis of this accident? Like an interview with the belayer, or anything? Or is this all hearsay? Did anyone else hear of or witness this accident?
Belayer was climber's young teenage daughter. Climber is well known and respected locally, regionally, and somewhat nationally. I'm sure more info will come out at some point.

This thread exists to argue about opinions, not actually figure anything out.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

Totally sad accident. I'm sure his daughter feels awful, and I hope him the best recovery.

It would be helpful to have some listing of GriGri failures. My impression is they are very rare.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
JohnnyG wrote:Totally sad accident. I'm sure his daughter feels awful, and I hope him the best recovery. It would be helpful to have some listing of GriGri failures. My impression is they are very rare.
Belayer or GriGri?

I would be happy to wager they are 99.99% belayer caused accidents with that.01% being the wear issue which most will probably never encounter because they'll loose their grigris (per Locker) before this occurs.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I've worn holes in GriGris. I think it is from all the time spent on fat dirty static ropes while cleaning routes. It makes sense to have a fresh one for your normal belaying.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Brian wrote: Actual analysis!? What are you new to Mountain Project? First there is an announcement of the accident usually by someone who wasn't there. Second there is wild speculation as to what happened and who or what is to fault. Third there is name calling and insults when people don't agree. Well okay, not everyone and if you wade through the pages of BS you may be able to interpret a modicum of useful information.
Perfect! Right on target.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
JohnnyG wrote:Totally sad accident. I'm sure his daughter feels awful, and I hope him the best recovery. It would be helpful to have some listing of GriGri failures. My impression is they are very rare.
Folks dropped on grigris are not unknown or even "rare"

Now an actual mechanical issue with a grigri is very rare

But do a simple search for grigri accident on google and you'll find tons

And there are threads on MP about drops on grigris, being dropped on a grigri and dropping someone on a grigri

A grigri is a great device if uses properly by an experienced belayer with a solid break hand

Unfortunately if you take a quick glance around the crag next time many folks dont use a grigri properly

Its the common attitude that grigris will do your work for you that causes these drops
tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507
Morgan Patterson wrote:http://www.gofundme.com/jimewing
Absurd
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
tim wrote: Absurd
Why? Because he didn't go on vacation with 20k extra for a medical flight his insurance wouldn't pay?

Should he be left in a hospital half a country away racking up bigger out of network fees because he didn't have the money?

He did everything right insurance wise, not a lot of people have 20k sitting around. Especially those that work to make the gear you use.
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
bearbreeder wrote: A grigri is a great device if uses properly by an experienced belayer with a solid break hand
"brake"
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10
bearbreeder wrote: Folks dropped on grigris are not unknown or even "rare" Now an actual mechanical issue with a grigri is very rare But do a simple search for grigri accident on google and you'll find tons And there are threads on MP about drops on grigris, being dropped on a grigri and dropping someone on a grigri...
O.k. so I did a quick google search and I only found maybe two incidents of people being dropped. One guy said he was dropped but offered zero detail another account started "So I was there but..."

One guy chimed in that they dropped a grigri on his big toe. A woman complianed about her hair getting stuck. Other people with stuck ropes. And one mysterious report of a cut rope with no details; people suspected gravel got caught in the grigri.

So--anyone else ever had a grigri failure? or know of specific cases?

Could these "tons" of grigri failures be just a myth?
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
JohnnyG wrote: O.k. so I did a quick google search and I only found maybe two incidents of people being dropped. One guy said he was dropped but offered zero detail another account started "So I was there but..." One guy chimed in that they dropped a grigri on his big toe. A woman complianed about her hair getting stuck. Other people with stuck ropes. And one mysterious report of a cut rope with no details; people suspected gravel got caught in the grigri. So--anyone else ever had a grigri failure? or know of specific cases? Could these "tons" of grigri failures be just a myth?
I think you may get a lot of responses. I personally know of one where the belayer (a young girl) panicked when her boyfriend fell in a gym and she held down the lever and he decked. You can say that is not the device but a high potential misuse of a device is as critical as a mechanical failure of the device. Most of these misuses, like this, probably don't make it to the web so won't show up in a Google search.
sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60

I take offense to the title of the post- it is unfair to the grigri because it suggests the gri-gri to be a faulty or difficult-to-use-properly device while there is little emphasis on the belayer's role. It is akin to a car accident where a driver is operating their car on the wrong direction lane of the road (happened to me, the guy caused me to total my car) and the headline reads, "Another accident due to misuse of a car". Belayers (and climbers who let people belay them) need to take responsibility, and not just point fingers at a tool. What if everyone gangs up on the grigri and Petzl decides to stop making them due to losing money from law suits?

It was the belayer's fault - and the climber's, as such a responsibilty should not be given to someone who is not competent. I use a grigri and whenever my partner falls, my left hand (rope feeding hand) whips to and instinctively locks down to the brake side of the rope, not even thinking about it. It is so reflexive (right from the start) that I didn't realize that people would think to grab the climber side. How how would any device, ATC or Grigri, work if the rope has not yet gone through it?

The grigri is getting the flack, but it is not its fault, as since how is a device supposed to work if the operator is counteracting it? That said, I did witness a lazy grigri belayer today, he had his ropefeeding hand in his pocket and was holding the grigri with only one hand. I suppose I didn't consider lazy belaying because I never even want to give the impression of being a nonchalant belayer. It is someone's life in my hands and I want to rise up to the level of trust they give me.

I know everyone loves their kid, but I wish a little more objectivity would be used when evaluating your child (or girl/boyfriend's) aptitude for belaying. I believe some people have intuitive rope management and belaying skills, while others don't, so habits must be drilled in to those who don't. So much emphasis and glory is placed on climbing harder grades that belaying well gets no attention or glory, where it is the only necessary component of successful climbing.

Delete This · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 110

Well said Ana Tine... may be not what certain folks want to hear but what they need to hear
www.Wild-Paths.com

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
JohnnyG wrote: O.k. so I did a quick google search and I only found maybe two incidents of people being dropped. One guy said he was dropped but offered zero detail another account started "So I was there but..." One guy chimed in that they dropped a grigri on his big toe. A woman complianed about her hair getting stuck. Other people with stuck ropes. And one mysterious report of a cut rope with no details; people suspected gravel got caught in the grigri. So--anyone else ever had a grigri failure? or know of specific cases? Could these "tons" of grigri failures be just a myth?
Most incidents that happen in the gym dont get reported online

Heres a quite from bisharat, who knows a thing or two about sport climbing, gyms and grigris

Yet not a month goes by that you don’t hear about a belayer dropping a climber, despite using a Grigri. Some of these rules apply specifically to the Grigri and to sport-climbing situations.

I highly recommend folks read his article on grigri use

eveningsends.com/climbing/n…

There have been threads on here where folks have witnessed multiple different belayers drop folks in the gym with grigris

Heres another accident that is almost exactly the same of the OPs

FALL ON ROCK, POOR COMMUNICATION, INADEQUATE BELAY - DISTRACTED

Kentucky, Red River Gorge, Muir Valley

On March 21,I took a lead fall, landing at the base of the climb Suppress the Rage (5.12a) located at the Sunny Side. I was at the second-to-last bolt when I decided to rest before making the last hard move. I must admit that I started climbing kind of suddenly, maybe surprising my belayer. Anyway, when I was less than one meter above the bolt I fell off. Before I had time to realize what was happening, I found myself screaming and hitting the ground with my right leg and then my butt. Fortunately the rope got tight at the very last second, so I didn’t fully impact the ground. But still, I broke my pelvis and two vertebrae.

Analysis

Here is why I think this happened. First of all, my belayer got distracted as soon as I decided to rest for a few seconds. I saw him talking with people while I started falling. Second, there was too much slack in the rope, because it doesn’t make sense to take a 12-meter fall, when you’re only one meter above the bolt. Third, he told me that, as soon as he realized I was falling, he grabbed the rope above and below the Grigri, compromising its activation.

The moral is to pay attention to what you are doing. Always confirm that your belayer knows how to belay properly. The Grigri can be a deceiving belay device to use for the inexperienced. Some think it works by itself and don’t pay attention to how it functions in the correct way!

I’ve been climbing for more than ten years and consider myself to be experienced. This was the first time climbing with this person, so we didn’t know each other well enough, and there was probably lack of communication. It wouldn’t happen to me with my usual climbing mates. (Source: Edited from a report by Francesco Peci)


publications.americanalpine…

Remember that most incidents, indoors and out, often dont get reported online

There is a false sense of security with the grigri that they are "safe" regardless of the belayer ... They arent, they are only as "safe" as the person using it
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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