How Rap Slings came to the Gunks

rgold wrote: If you widen your spacial frame of view, perhaps you find that there are three anchors on a walkable ledge each sixty feet from the other. (This occurs on the ledge running from Jackie to Dennis, for example.) Are three bolted stations now required to save the stressed trees?

If the Preserve restricts all these most popular easy climbs to one shared rap station, the undesirable rap slings are gonna pop back up on that ledge. It's human nature.

Eric G. wrote: If the Preserve restricts all these most popular easy climbs to one shared rap station, the undesirable rap slings are gonna pop back up on that ledge. It's human nature.

Maybe, but I think that is an untested hypothesis. The "human nature" argument is continually used to claim that there is no way to get climbers to alter environmentally destructive behaviors, and the only way to deal with the situation is to institutionalize, via bolting, the choices climbers make, whether those choices make any sense or not from a global perspective. This boils down to building an outhouse at every pile of crap in the woods, and it doesn't strike me as land management in any reasonable sense of the word.

rgold wrote: Maybe, but I think that is an untested hypothesis. The "human nature" argument is continually used to claim that there is no way to get climbers to alter environmentally destructive behaviors, and the only way to deal with the situation is to institutionalize, via bolting, the choices climbers make, whether those choices make any sense or not from a global perspective. This boils down to building an outhouse at every pile of crap in the woods, and it doesn't strike me as land management in any reasonable sense of the word.

My comment isn't even close to going that far. There is often a traffic jam on the ledge we're talking about and very few gunks climbers are attuned to this conversation. Once a visiting climber sees a line 3+ parties deep to rap and makes his or her own temporary sling station, other nearby parties will use it. And they will probably like it.

Analogizing three bolted anchors on a ledge at the most popular easy routes at one of the most popular crags in the world to "building an outhouse at every pile of crap in the woods" is going a bit too far.

Personally, my friends and I prefer to top and walk or jog to the uber fall. We like it up there. But if the very most popular rappel "choke-points" are restricted, it is reasonable to assume an increase in sling stations.

Has the Preserve express concerns about the stressed trees or any other environmental issues caused by climbers?

No need to discuss as the great state of NY will ban all of this very soon. One day we will all look back and say remember when we could drink soda and climb rocks, while kids look at us with amazement.

rging wrote:No need to discuss as the great state of NY will ban all of this very soon.

Source?

rgold wrote:Bolting in a place like the Trapps is a land management issue for the Preserve, it isn't something that is up to this or that climber at all. The Preserve's interest are in...preservation...not in climber convenience.

Thnx for this...

I really appreciated reading your points and you make some good ones but, I have a few counters but they're kinda long responses so for now the short one:

Since the Preserve engages actively and from what I can tell, heavily in Conservation Science and decided to place bolted rap stations, wouldn't it follow that the anchors are there out of conservation principles, based on informed scientific basis? And any perceived "convenience" is merely a side effect?

Dana Bartlett wrote: A bit of a misunderstanding, perhaps. My response to Kevin wasn't about the need for rap anchors; I wasn't trying to address that issue at all. It was about the reason(s) they are placed and used, not the reason they are/aren't needed. I suppose it's impossible to separate the two, but I wanted to keep the discussion clear.

ah... word! Hope ur well Dana!

Eric G. wrote: There is often a traffic jam on the ledge we're talking about and very few gunks climbers are attuned to this conversation. Once a visiting climber sees a line 3+ parties deep to rap and makes his or her own temporary sling station, other nearby parties will use it. And they will probably like it.

You could be right, but you are assuming you know how those slings got there. It is equally likely that they were placed for top-roping Dennis and Belly Roll.

Eric G. wrote:Analogizing three bolted anchors on a ledge at the most popular easy routes at one of the most popular crags in the world to "building an outhouse at every pile of crap in the woods" is going a bit too far.

Well, you have particularized my comment to those three anchors, whereas I was speaking of the reactive inclination to "fix" environmental stresses with bolts without doing anything the try to mitigate those stresses before they happen.

Eric G. wrote: But if the very most popular rappel "choke-points" are restricted, it is reasonable to assume an increase in sling stations.

Well, we've had a helluva increase in sling stations without restrictions on choke points, so what you're saying boils down to sling stations are going to continue to multiply and there's nothing to be done about it. Here again is the human nature argument against ever doing anything proactive. I think that if the Preserve had a clear policy specifying where anchors can and cannot be placed, that there would be plenty of climbers who would support that policy by cutting down "rogue installations" as soon as they appeared, knowing that they were acting not as individuals but rather in accordance with specified guidelines for the area.

rgold wrote: Well, you have particularized my comment to those three anchors.

I was ONLY talking about those most popular easy climbs that you first brought up as an example. Don't make my comment more than it was. I am not arguing bolted rap stations are necessary, just responding to your example of the Jackie - Belly Roll ledge. It's a zoo on that ledge, pull two of the bolt stations and you will more likely than not see more sling salad on that ledge.

rgold wrote: Well, we've had a helluva increase in sling stations without restrictions on choke points, so what you're saying boils down to sling stations are going to continue to multiply and there's nothing to be done about it. Here again is the human nature argument against ever doing anything proactive. I think that if the Preserve had a clear policy specifying where anchors can and cannot be placed, that there would be plenty of climbers who would support that policy by cutting down "rogue installations" as soon as they appeared, knowing that they were acting not as individuals but rather in accordance with specified guidelines for the area.

I never said there is nothing that can be done about sling anchors.

In any case, I agree that a Preserve policy would have a positive impact on rogue installations. That has nothing to do with any of my prior comments though.

Making a rap station out of slings is not prohibited. A visitor who does so has little reason to believe they are doing something negative ("most visitors are not attuned to this conversation"). My human nature comment is that such an individual will likely solve their waiting-in-line problem by making an additional rap station and taking matters into their own hands -- and they will probably think they've done a public service!(I have already clarified this point). I was not saying human nature dictates that folks will break rules or act intentionally destructive when they know better.

I wrote that "if the very most popular rappel "choke-points" are restricted, it is reasonable to assume an increase in sling stations." That statement seems pretty reasonable to me. Only on the internet could someone turn that into "sling stations are going to continue to multiply and there's nothing to be done about it."

I think you read a simple comment and assumed it meant a whole lot more. I have met you (on top of Annie Oh!) and read your internet commentary and have great respect for you. My last priority is to argue over sling anchors on the internet. I just needed to clarify what my simple commentary actually meant, and can't allow it to be presented as "why bother, its hopeless" because I detest that attitude.

You say I'm reading more than you intended, whereas I think I'm reading precisely what is there, and your clarifications are that you intended less. Which is fine, you've made your points and neither of us really wants to haggle over fine distinctions.

One thing you said did puzzle me---you referred to three bolted rappel stations on the Dennis-Jackie ledge? As far as I know, there is only one bolted station, at Jackie, and two sling installations, one on a tree above Slightly Roddey which would (perhaps with a directional) serve as a top-roping station for Belly Roll, and a second on a tree above Dennis which would serve as a top-roping station for that.

rgold wrote:You say I'm reading more than you intended, whereas I think I'm reading precisely what is there, and your clarifications are that you intended less. Which is fine, you've made your points and neither of us really wants to haggle over fine distinctions.

There is no fine distinction to haggle over.

I never said there is nothing that can be done about sling anchors.

I was not saying human nature dictates that folks will break rules or act intentionally destructive when they know better.

My comment was clearly limited to the Jackie ledge.

I am also done with this. I clarified the point that is important to me.

JSH wrote:Rich, you keep referring to new stations appearing (eg two posts above, 'hella increase'). Again, I cannot think of any new (not replacement, but entirely new) stations. Please substantiate the claim?

Not sure what you want Julie. I haven't been keeping a list, but I see more and more slings in more and more places. And this is especially true if I find myself somewhere in the Trapps I haven't been for a year or two. Perhaps some of these are locations that had slings, then didn't, and then had them again, making them appear new to me and a replacement to you.

Eric G. brought up a possibility I hadn't thought of and have never seen, namely that people who get tired of waiting to rap from an established anchor will just build another one nearby.

Another thing that has proliferated, although not at nearly the same rate as slings, is cables on trees.

I think the only problem with the below is limiting it to saving stressed trees. Of course it's been mentioned up thread that the cliff top would be affected without these rap stations (bolted or not).

Of course, activism is always a matter of convenience. It just depends on where you want to walk (or not).

rgold wrote: I think the situation is less clear-cut than some people suggest. A typical example: climbers install slings on a tree. The anchor gets a lot of use and the tree is stressed. People look at the tree and say that bolts are needed to reduce environmental impact. The result is that you have what I would call local perspectives informing practices with global consequences. These perspectives can be restricted either spatially or temporally. If you widen your spacial frame of view, perhaps you find that there are three anchors on a walkable ledge each sixty feet from the other. (This occurs on the ledge running from Jackie to Dennis, for example.) Are three bolted stations now required to save the stressed trees? In the same vein, if you widen your temporal perspective and ask whether it ever made sense, from a land management perspective, to have a sling on that original tree at all, you might have concluded that the solution was to remove the sling and try to find ways to encourage climbers not to replace it, rather than installing some bolts. I also think the environmental arguments say something about climbers in general that is not a happy thought, which is that as a group they are quite willing to destroy the environment and the only solution to the problem is to provide alternatives that are convenient enough that they will leave the trees alone. I'm not at all convinced this is true, and if it isn't true, then the conclusion would be that such environmental sensitivities as climbers possess have not been activated in the service of preservation by the Preserve (juxtaposition of words intended). Bolting in a place like the Trapps is a land management issue for the Preserve, it isn't something that is up to this or that climber at all. The Preserve's interest are in...preservation...not in climber convenience. The Preserve, to suggest a Modest Proposal, could simply rope off climbs with stressed trees, as it does with trails, with a sign saying that the area needs to reconstitute. I suspect something like that would alter climber behaviors in a flash.

JSH wrote:Rich, you keep referring to new stations appearing (eg two posts above, 'hella increase'). Again, I cannot think of any new (not replacement, but entirely new) stations. Please substantiate the claim?

Julie, The three piton chain anchor on Son of Easy O is relatively new. A couple of years? It was purportedly put there to save the trees on the top but is frequently used to top-rope the climb. BTW you can walk off from there faster than you can rap the route particularly if someone is below you. IMHO, put an anchor on the very top to save the trees and chop the pitons/chains. Or put a separate rap route to the side so no one can top-rope the climb.

Brian wrote: Julie, The three piton chain anchor on Son of Easy O is relatively new. A couple of years? It was purportedly put there to save the trees on the top but is frequently used to top-rope the climb. BTW you can walk off from there faster than you can rap the route particularly if someone is below you. IMHO, put an anchor on the very top to save the trees and chop the pitons/chains. Or put a separate rap route to the side so no one can top-rope the climb.

I could be wrong, but I feel like every time I go to the Trapps I see new slings on trees at the top of the cliff.

Incidentally, I think this is in part because it can be fiendishly difficult to find some of the existing bolted rappels. I've spent 30 minutes wandering around looking for a rappel I know is somewhere right under my nose, but due to there being no trail, no marks on trees, small cliff bands, and another fairly nearby rap (that I don't want to use because it goes right over a popular climb) - I can't find.

Rich - I appreciate you taking the time to write down your historical perspective. Thanks for that!

GO

Brian wrote: Julie, The three piton chain anchor on Son of Easy O is relatively new. A couple of years?

If I recall, it was two fixed pieces (either 2 pins or a pin and a tricam) connected with a rats nest of slings for at least a decade before it was changed to its current configuration.

By the way, I agree with those posters who say that whether a climb does or doesn't have bolted anchors makes a huge difference in the feeling of a climb. Anyone who doesn't believe me, go do a line like Olive Oil, in Red Rocks. Right across from Crimson Chrysalis, (and a number grade easier!) but while CC feels like a bolt-festooned fun romp in the park, Olive Oil feels like a real adventure.

Right next door to each other, but they may as well be in different worlds, for the different feeling you get climbing them.

GO

Jeffrey Dunn wrote: If I recall, it was two fixed pieces (either 2 pins or a pin and a tricam) connected with a rats nest of slings for at least a decade before it was changed to its current configuration.

I don't recall that. Although, there's lots I don't recall. :-) Do you mean at the belay? The new chains are farther to the right to facilitate rapping (and top-roping).

JSH wrote: This is what I recall as well, pin(s) and a pink tricam. Very crusty. I remember it from the first time someone took me up the climb - he linked the pitches and belayed from that anchor (supplemented). I was a bit intimidated following (and now I think, he must have been crazy to link that for a pretty newbie climber, but hey, I made it). Any others?

Oh yeah,,,it is coming back to me...I belay to the left of that on my own built anchor. Don't need the pitons/chains. You can get gear in there if you want to belay from that spot. It would go a long way in reducing top-roping on an already over-loved climb.

SOEO chains