Potrero Chico Accident: Any more info?

rocknice2 wrote:It's not quite as simple as "always knot the ends" @ EPC. There are numerous things to hang up on. The face is less than vertical with tons of cactus, flakes and cracks.

Yes it is. Ropes get stuck without knots, and just because they are more likely to get stuck isn't justification for not knotting the ends. In high winds or when there is a high probability of sticking the rope, I coil the rope so it feeds out of the sling/s clipped to my gear loop instead of blowing across the face and wedging behind some flake. Most times, safer isn't faster, and faster won't be safer. The two places in Mexico I never want to visit, jail and the hospital.

Ana Tine wrote: Luckily, this is when I was still using an autoblock as I had been taught in a class I took at the gym.

I would question the sanity of anyone rappelling in Potrero who did so without either knotting the end of the ropes or using a backup. Consider, a softball sized rock impacting your helmet or shoulders from 30 feet can easily knock you unconscious, making rope control very difficult. The auto block is the best, as it keeps you from zipping down the face, while the knots just keep you on the end of laces and off the deck.

If I was knowingly using a rope with a jingus center mark I'd be sure to knot ends.

rocknice2 wrote:It's not quite as simple as "always knot the ends" @ EPC. There are numerous things to hang up on. The face is less than vertical with tons of cactus, flakes and cracks.

I rapped TWZ last week. We tied knots on every one of the 21 raps. We had zero problems. In 15 years of climbing I have gotten knots stuck on rappel maybe once or twice, and neither time was it an issue to go get them unstuck.

The "knots may become stuck" argument is not a good one.

I have to apologize for jacking this thread on my original post.

After reading the article I came to the conclusion that there was a similarity between the two incidents - both appear to have rappelled off the ends of their ropes.

My first thought was this can be prevented whether or not you've cut up your rope and the ends from the middle mark do not match up. This can be prevented even if knocked unconscious. A simple knot that takes seconds to tie and untie can and has saved lives.

I'll confess, I'm not always following best practice, and find myself being stupid on occasion. This is almost always at the end of the day - being tired, beat up, and a want to get back to the car or camp.

If for my own well being my first post can help remind someone, I feel better for it. It may not always be the most efficient/fastest, but it is more safe than not.

Everyone's risk tolerance is different, so do what you want. A simple solution to make a safer rappel for a "what if" that takes very little effort and time should always be something to ponder before launching.

"What if", is out there watching and waiting for us all. I'm sure the "what if" these climbers were thinking of was not rappelling off the ends of the rope, but...

Bill Lawry wrote: Maybe ... or, more significantly so, does it add too much of a challenge for a team to count on remembering to offset the middle mark and insure you're doing it in the right direction and for the right amount. Every. Single. Rap. [....] Keep it simple sometimes counts a lot.

It's not the safest thing in the context of their rope situation is exactly what I meant. Totally do able. Something you could mess up in the many raps getting off TWZ? Surely.

KISS helps. I remember the ropes with demarcations other than the middle leading to the same sorts of accidents.

If ur using a rope other than yr own for the first time

Always feed it from the ends together and knot the ends/saddlebag the first rap down

The middle mark could be wrong, the rope could have been chopped, etc ...

Eric D wrote: I rapped TWZ last week. We tied knots on every one of the 21 raps. We had zero problems. In 15 years of climbing I have gotten knots stuck on rappel maybe once or twice, and neither time was it an issue to go get them unstuck. The "knots may become stuck" argument is not a good one.

Hey Eric,

I make the call on whether to use knots based on the situation. If it's a heavily plated face in RR, I might opt to omit knots and be very attentive to the ends of the rope. That said, I rap with a backup to help mitigate the risk of losing control of the rap due to unforeseen events like rockfall.

Ultimately, for me, it's about making the best call for the situation. I think knots at the ends of the rope are a good choice most of the time, but probably not every time.

Just my take. :)

My condolences to those involved & their families.

Colonel Mustard wrote: ...I remember the ropes with demarcations other than the middle leading to the same sorts of accidents.

I am still baffled by those accidents, and find it unfortunate that what seemed like a a great idea was squashed b/c a few people couldn't (or likely just didn't) tell the difference between the end marks & the middle mark. Now we are back to marking our own rope ends if we want.

Geir wrote: Hey Eric, I make the call on whether to use knots based on the situation. If it's a heavily plated face in RR, I might opt to omit knots and be very attentive to the ends of the rope...

I agree; it is situational. IMHO hard rules rarely work in climbing.

I agree that knotting the ends of the rope is a judgement call. I feel that the exceptions to this rule are few and far between.

Training is paramount to what we do. You train your body to be fit for the climb. In the same fashion, you should train your mind too. This weighs heavily at the end of a long day when fatigue is taking it's toll and your focus has faded. Going into a sort of 'autopilot' state of mind if you will. Generally your mind doesn't process and analyze data well in state, and tend to just react. This is the time when that training is so valuable, as generally you'll do what you typically do. If you knot the ends most of the time, you will probably do so under heavy fatigue . If you only knot the ends in certain dangerous situations. I believe you've effectively trained yourself to rappel without knotting the ends. Such that one could overlook one of these dangers, neglect the knots, and end up paying the price. Instead of 'always' .... maybe its better said that, 'the vast majority of situations' you should knot the ends.

sherb wrote: " P.S. A more significant issue in the Time Wave Zero case was the danger of using a rope that previously had one end trimmed ... at each rap trying to offset from the middle mark to make up for it ... all while very focused on time ... and when nearing the end of a very ambitious day. I think that is a big contributing factor, but not the more significant issue. Even without the offset, a person could rap off the unknotted ends of their rope if they missed the last set of anchors (i.e. hard to see, dark).

Absolutely, i would never use an altered piece of gear, it doesnt work the same. Buy a new rope. Its only money. The middle mark is important.